Legolas and Gimli

[Ithildin55]

As others have noted, the character named Legolas that appeared in the tale of the Fall of Gondolin, cannot be considered to be the same character, however changed. I agree that Tolkien probably liked the name, and so re-used it at a later date when he wrote LOTR. He styled the name to be Silvan, so it could not have been used for a Sindarin or Noldorin character, even if he had re-written the story.

As to the German translator’s opinion of Legolas, perhaps he was influenced by a comment Tolkien made somewhere stating that Legolas accomplished less than any other member of the Fellowship. I don’t know that the good professor ever totally explained what he meant by that and many people disagree with him (in spite of the fact that he did write the story…)

As far as choosing an Elf to include in the Fellowship, there were a number of powerful Elf Lords available to Elrond, some who were Noldorin Exiles born in Aman. Their store of knowledge and military experience alone would have been amazing. Add in greater stature and physical strength and, in Glorfindel’s case, power almost to the level of the Maiar and yes, indeed their abilities would far exceed those of a Sindarin Elf raised in the Silvan culture of Mirkwood.

However, the skills and talents that Legolas possessed were exactly what the Fellowship needed. Remember at the Council Elrond said, “The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong.” (Council of Elrond, FotR). I think the point Tolkien was trying to make here, was that each member of the Fellowship had talents and abilities that together would make it possible for the Quest to be successful, though the ‘wise’ and the ‘great often overlooked their special qualities. Gandalf had a way of seeing beyond the surface in people, and I expect his recommendations contributed somewhat to the formation of the Fellowship.

[Nariel]

1st question: when bilbo saw the Elves feasting in the forest, the only thing that distinguished the Elvish King from the others was a crown of branches, I believe. Since Thranduil was extremely old, it is safe to assume that he was the Elvish king in question. However, since this was the only thing distinguishing him from the others, it is safe to assume that nobility was not terribly important to the Mirkwood elves. Therefore, Bilbo might well have seen Legloas and not have recognized him as a "prince" per se. However, I do not believe that Legolas would have been one sent to "arrest" the dwarves, since he was indeed nobility and there were guards (as is suggested in "Hobbit") for this job. Legolas might have questioned them, though. THis might be contested by his account in FoTR, where it is implied that he was one of the ones to guard Smeagol.

ALso, I think the Elves in "Hobbit" were seen as fairly calm individuals with a "hankerin'" (couldn't come up with a more sophisticated word at the moment ) for wine. They almost seem like dryads. The whole situation reminded me of "THe Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" where Mr. Tumnus was telling Lucy about the perties they would have during the summer. Anyway, in LoTR, the ELves almost seem like party-poopers who don't really have any hope for the future. They don't have to worry about their world falling apart, though, since they can just go to the West and let the rest of ME go down the drain. Legolas, however, doesn't seem to match with the rest, as he is very eager to go to war and defeat the enemy.

2nd Question: I think during the Moria affair, Legolas gained some respect for Gimli. He took pity on the suffering of the dwarf. While they were in Lorien, I think Legolas saw that they might have something in common and therefore took Gimli with him on his outings. Tolkien makes it rather clear (I thought) that by the time the Fellowship left Lorien, Legolas and Gimli were already fast friends. The time on the boats just deepened their friendship.

That is my opinion

[Lalaith]

I know that it is not the same Legolas. The one in BolT is from Gondolin and the Legolas we know now from LotR is the son of Thranduil and lives later than the first one.
But I only wanted to mention, that Tolkien early had an idea of what character Legolas should have - before he actually wrote LotR.
But he also once said, that Legolas was the less important character of the fellowship. The weakest.

[Nurvingiel]

You could be right Lalaith, but I just don't see any evidence that Tolkien's final decision on Legolas was that he would be the weakest. He changed his mind on other things, he could have changed his mind about Legolas too.

If you look at deeds alone, you might count Legolas among the weakest. But what about Gimli? I always considered them equal, except that he won the contest at Helm's Deep by one axe-stroke. Circumstance helped him there, Legolas might have had the same score had he won back from the caves.

That being said, I don't think Legolas and Gimli were weak at all. Gandalf had the ability, as Ithildin55 said, to see beyond the surface in people. In every battle, Gimli and Legolas fought bravely, probably saving lives. More importantly, Gimli came to respect elves, especially Galadriel, and Legolas encouraged Aragorn and Gimli when they were tracking Merry and Pippin. I think both these deeds were very important, and exactly what the Fellowship needed.

It's because friendship, hope, and courage were more important than strength and power that everyone in the Fellowship is equally important.

[Lalaith]

Nurvingiel: Okay, you make me feel better about that topic. I always wondered: Why would he say somethings.
I mean he wasn't temptet by the ring at all. That alone should prove that he was not weak at all.

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks Lalaith! I really don't think Legolas is weak either! Of course, only Boromir, and later, Frodo were tempted by the Ring - both understandably - provimg that eveyone in the Fellowship were tough stuff!

[Lalaith]

But in the end Boromir decided just right and realized what big mistake he made.
And he helped Frodo making the right decision.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Thanks Lalaith! I really don't think Legolas is weak either! Of course, only Boromir, and later, Frodo were tempted by the Ring - both understandably - provimg that eveyone in the Fellowship were tough stuff!

Ah, but I think all members of the Fellowship were to some extent tempted by the Ring. But only Boromir was conquered by it! And you could say Frodo was too, in the end. That is not to say any of them were weak. On the contrary, they were strong to resist the temptation.

About Legolas: No he was not weak, but he did perhaps not grow as much as the others, simply from the fact that from the beginning he was perhaps the strongest (spiritually and physically) member of the Fellowship save Gandalf.

[Ithildin55]

I agree with Artanis, the Ring seemed to tempt everyone, except perhaps Tom Bombadil I think Frodo’s ‘failure’ was meant to prove that no one could have resisted it in the end, where it was the most powerful. Frodo’s task was to get it there.

And no, Legolas was not at all weak. Tolkien described him thus: “He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.” ( The Book of Lost Tales, II, The History of Eriol or Aelfwine, p. 333, Del Rey edition)

I think Tolkien’s intention was simply that the time of the Elves was over, so he did not allow the Elven member of the Fellowship to accomplish more than the representatives of the other races. As Artanis pointed out, Legolas was quite strong physically and spiritually. He did his part well to guard and protect the Fellowship and frequently encouraged the others along the way.

[Lalaith]

Tolkien described him thus: “He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.” ( The Book of Lost Tales, II, The History of Eriol or Aelfwine, p. 333, Del Rey edition)

I just read that part a few days ago. Tolkien said that when somebody painted (or described, I'm not quite sure) Legolas small and weak.

And I love the Legolas parts in the book. They always make me laugh. That part when they are in Fangorn and he tells the others that this this wood made him feel young, younger than he has felt since he was together with the fellowship - it made me laugh out loud.

[Nurvingiel]

Good point Artanis! He was over a thousand, he was that much more mature than other members of the Fellowship - barring Gandalf, of course. We know Aragorn's been through a lot, think how much Legolas experienced in his long life!

Even so, he still does mature. He's way more cool about Dwarves by the end of the Fellowship! He's not trying to lay blame when it comes to the lost friendship of Elves and Dwarves.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Far be it from me to bash Elves, but I expect that Aragorn's had a far rougher time as a Ranger battling the forces of Sauron than Legolas has had as an Elvish prince of Mirkwood.

[cassiopeia]

But remember that there were large spiders in Mirkwood and Sauron resided in Dul Guldur for a while as well. The Mirkwood elves certainly seemed to be suspicious in the Hobbit, so life might not have been easy for prince Legolas.

[Keith K]

To me the elves of the Hobbit seem far less serious about things than the Elves in the later story. They are so noble and sad in LOTR and so silly and gay in the Hobbit. That is not surprising when you consider that the stories themselves have similar differences. Along this train of thought the Hobbit is comparitively silly and gay in general, while LOTR is more serious and sad on the whole.

I agree with Artanis, the Ring seemed to tempt everyone, except perhaps Tom Bombadil

I think that Elrond exhibited an uncommon resistance to the Ring. After all, he was present with it at Mt. Doom. Also, he had it within his power in Rivendell and didn't try to seize it. Besides, it was his idea to destroy it (which wouldn't be the idea of someone who lusted after it).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

But it wasn't offered to him; and Elrond wasn't necessarily present with it; I don't think it mentions that, does it?

And I presume by "gay" you mean "jolly/merry"?

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But it wasn't offered to him; and Elrond wasn't necessarily present with it; I don't think it mentions that, does it?

And I presume by "gay" you mean "jolly/merry"?

Elrond stood with Gil-galad, and Isildur stood with Elendil. Only those four are said to have been present when the Ring was taken from Sauron on Mt. Doom. The Sammath Naur or Crack of Doom or whatever was pretty close by. It seems that the Ring increases in power as it nears that place so if Elrond wanted it he could have attacked Isildur and perhaps taken it for himself. But he still counseled for the rings' destruction. He was not influenced by it IMO.

Yes, jolly/merry.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've never thought of Elrond as not influenced by it: I mean, Galadriel herself was, and she was a mighty Noldorin lady. As usual, I could be wrong; I'm only a halfwitted apprentice loremaster.

Okay, I'm glad to hear that.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Keith K
The Sammath Naur or Crack of Doom or whatever was pretty close by. It seems that the Ring increases in power as it nears that place

I suspect the ring was somewhat in shock just at that moment.

[Dunadan]

Galadriel's case was rather different, being one of the Noldor who went to Middle-Earth to retrieve the Silmarils. IIRC correctly, she couldn't return to Valinor until she had renounced all that descended from the Silmarils, which included the Rings of Power. (The Doom of Mandos, I think) So, her connection with the Ring was much more intimate than Elrond's; she had to be tempted by the Ring, and reject it, in order to escape Middle-Earth.

cheers

d.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The Rings of Power descended from the Silmarils? Didn't know that.