![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
|
Tolkien on Posession
"Neither genuine hypnosis, nor variants, occur in my tale. Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and it's after impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers"
J.R.R. Tolkien from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman #210 I posted this just as the other thread got closed, so I reposted here. I thought everyone should read it since it's Tolkien's own perspective. I think it ends the debate about the exorsism in the film. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 10-24-2003 at 01:33 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
Depiction of Theoden's healing
Starting this thread to continue the discussion of the difference between the book and the movie regarding Theoden.
I think the theme of listening to Gandalf is NOT as well-developed as I would like in the movies. I think having Theoden "posessed" instead of merely "influenced" by Saruman through Grima detracted from an important theme in many medieval and mythological tales. When you have one single point of decision such as a king or emperor, he better have a care who he takes as a counselor. Gandalf is the wise counselor throughout and is constantly shown in comparison with bad counselors. Turning it into a continuation of the telekinetic staff battle was just Hollywood nonsense. [edit] I see that squintyeyed started a thread after the closing of a previous thread. I think we are actually talking about two different things, though.
__________________
cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 10-24-2003 at 02:58 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
SES, they say great minds think alike.
![]() I am pretty certain, however, that quotes from Letters and books will not end debates since fiction and drama are different media and movie-makers have always altered stories when converting between them. I suggest we keep the discussion here to exorcism and keep the discussion on my thread to the theme of "counseling".
__________________
cya |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
|
Yes, I think we were writing at the same time.
You are correct about letters not ending debates, I really only meant with respect to a specific poster who was arguing that the exorsism in the film was hinted to in the novel and expanded for the film. I think Tolkien's quote clears up that specific point. Perhaps a mod could just insert my thread into yours and then the discussions will all be in one thread. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
I'd like to keep in these discussions, unfortunately I think that the big part is over. But who can tell? with two certain people at each others throats, maybe the discussions will go on.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 198
|
The whole scene in my opinion (like so many others) was just so over done. Grima's make-up? Theoden's Linda Blair look? and the whole Saruman flying backward scene. How about some subtlety?
Saruman was not done well in these films, in my opinion. He is a wonderful and complex character. The symbolism of his white robe fracturing into the entire spectrum was ignored, his ability to persuade was left unrealized, his real motivations toward the ring were reduced to nothing more than joining Sauron. What a missed opportunity. Lee had the voice to pull it off too. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
I did merge the two threads, as they were addressing the same issue.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
I have made my statements on Theoden - the whole scene was ridiculous. One of the many scenes that will not be fixed by the extended edition.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
![]() Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Actuall on the whole I'd say saruman was the best done character in the movies. But you're right, tthey could have at least been more subtle. Saruman's flting backward was really...dumb.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
|
Quote:
Ironically when I first saw the restoration of Theoden's "sanity" in TTT I started thinking about horror/monster films that had possessions and "supernatural" events. I guess this is a problem for me as someone that has watched/read too many other films/books.
__________________
Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Overly dramatic then. Dumb to put in the movie.
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
The scene doesn't match the book, but I found it very entertaining. It was one of my fave bits in TTT movie.
__________________
Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
We are talking about Theoden, which is Anglo-Saxon for "prince". þeoden, to be precise, but maybe "prince" is not a precise translation, eh?
__________________
cya |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 463
|
The part that annoyed me -- in addition to the lack of subtlety -- was that his hair and fingernails magically shortened when he was exorcised. It made no sense.
You'd think Eowyn would have noticed that her uncle wasn't himself, and made some comment earlier. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Oh didnt you know that Theoden took up yoga and hygiene fitness while Gandalf excorcised him all the while?
Excercise and Excorcise
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 10-24-2003 at 11:56 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
|
Quote:
Personally, I thought the exorcism worked but I would have preferred that it changed Theoden's eyes and made him suddenly look younger and more alive but without changing his scraggily beard or nails. He could have changed his complete appearance in the following scenes with the audience understanding he cleaned himself up. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
I just took the "magical" transformation as an example of "wizard magic". It's true, it's not that way in the book, but this type of "more simple" (dumbing down if you prefer to be harsh) interpretation was exciting for the movie (IMO) The bottom line was Theoden changed sides, to Gandalf's side of "good", which is where we all know the righteous king of the Rohirrim wanted to be. I didn't mind the "magical" special effects. (I thought they were rather entertaining
![]() Middle Earth ......a magic place or not? To a casual movie goer, I think the "magic" fits in well. Sometimes I think some of us expect too much from these movies. The huge, complex story... fantastic scenery and beauty...moving emotional acting, plus picking up all the interwoven, deep, "between the lines" themes of the story. For dedicated fans, (like many of us) these moving, complicated themes are the beauteous crux of the tale, but some people (particularly young veiwers) might find the "magic," mythological aspects of a land of elves, wizards, dwarfs, trolls etc to be very exciting. The fantasy genre thrives on these types of magical moments....doesn't it? ![]() ![]()
__________________
Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 10-25-2003 at 10:15 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
![]() Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Book V, ch. 7 & 8: The Pyre of Denethor and The Houses of Healing | Landroval | LOTR Discussion Project | 21 | 12-01-2007 07:06 PM |
The healing ability of the Elves | Sister Golden Hair | Middle Earth | 22 | 10-12-2004 10:26 AM |
RotK: Aragorn & Theoden's Speeches | Finrod Felagund | Lord of the Rings Movies | 10 | 12-30-2003 10:47 AM |
Theoden's mom | afro-elf | Lord of the Rings Books | 5 | 08-26-2003 11:19 AM |
Theodens death... | Linarryl | Middle Earth | 4 | 10-19-2002 03:52 PM |