Gollums fall *STORY SPOILERS*

[Sween]

Now ill freely admit i saw the movies before i read the book but a part of the book which i have allays been deeply unsatisfied with is the desruction of the ring. Gollum dancing round on the cracks of doom and loseing his balance.

Firstly all the way throught the book Gollum is very good at keeping his footing and to be honest it just is a bit of a crappy moment in the book IMHO!

I dont think it will transfer well to screen and will leave a lot of people disapointed! I can see sam or someone eventually sending gollum into the fire struggling with him

[Alqualaure]

Hmmm... really?

I'm interested to know others' opinion on this one as well. Like you, I also only 'discovered' the books after I'd seen the movies. But I thought Gollum falling into the Cracks of Doom was brilliant on several levels.

Gollum had his part to play, for good or evil, right? (And both, I guess, as it came about...) He was hysterical at regaining his Precious - we all get a bit off balance when we're deliriously happy, right? And I thought it awfully fitting that Frodo succumbed to the Ring at the last - he was awfully strong, but - hmm, can I say "only human"? ("Only Hobbit"?! LOL) I think that showing this weakness in Frodo only made him a more magnificent hero - it made him "real" to me.

And Gollum... ooh, my thoughts are so deep on this that I really don't have time to give them justice at the moment - I'll have to ponder this some more... but my thought is that in his folly, Gollum redeemed himself. Does that make sense? Wish I had more time to explain myself, but I've got to post and run just now. Perhaps others can clarify my poorly written idea!

Anyone, anyone?

Alqua

[The Gaffer]

Yeah, Gollum has to have a part to play, because "the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

The mechanics of how he ends up in the Fire don't really matter; the important things are:
- Frodo claims the Ring for himself
- Sauron peppers his pants
- because of Gollum, the Ring goes in the Fire.

I agree that it wouldn't translate too well directly from the book to the screen, and they'll work up the final scene in a lot more detail.

Maybe we should open a book on it:
Evens: Frodo pushes Gollum in
2-1: Sam does the deed
4-1: Gollum falls in
250-1: Arwen flies in on Gwaihir, gives them all a stern talking-to and tosses the Ring in herself.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

My first impression of Gollum's death was somewhat the same as Sween's (and like that of the end of the movie "Bridge over the River Kwai", where Alec Guinness seems to accidentally blow up the bridge.

But Tolkien seems to have had no problem with Gollum's end, even thinking it over. For example, in "Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" (#181) ""At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To 'pity' him, to forebear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity.....He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a "grace", that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his 'forgiveness', he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden."

Gollum's giving in to greed at that time and place, and backing away from Frodo (I think) after he had the ring would seem to have made his falling into the pit at least quite possible (and still better then that dumb River Kwai ending).

[Lizra]

Man....couldn't you guys do a spoiler gray on this!

[Elf Girl]

Why? This is a Tolkien forum; I think we can assume people have read the books!

I can't really articulate my feelings on the Gollum-falling business. I'll just say that the 'With a last wail Precious...' sentence was utter brilliance. *rereads and cries*

[smaug_the_magnificent]

To increase believability (if that is indeed required) PJ may depict the ground giving way slightly, at the point where Gollum is frolicking about in mirth.. Let us remember that this all takes place on (an almost cantilevering) precipice, overlooking a tempestuous volcanic chamber. It's fair to say that their surroundings in this moment aren't exactly stable! Gollum might lose his bearings momentarily, and place his foot on an area which was about to crack anyway - and then, he loses his balance as the ground beneath him gives way & falls into the abyss..

Any manipulation with regards to this (for example, either of the two Hobbits pushing him in, or Gollum committing suicide or whatever) would completely destroy the whole premise of this cataclysmic & iconic scene. In this instance the effect cannot be reached by any other cause..

In terms of its merits as an ending (with respect to the One Ring), I think the Tolkien quote that the "Tuor of Gondolin" posted below explains & justifies the drama in the best way possible..

It is perfect !

[Lanelf]

I don't know why, but I'd hate it if the ground gave way. I guess it's just so cliched.
Gaffer - Sauron peppers his pants??? Never heard that way before...
hey, I never even thought of Gollum throwing himself in.... hey, that might just seem kind of okay.
Lanelf.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Lanelf

hey, I never even thought of Gollum throwing himself in.... hey, that might just seem kind of okay.
Lanelf.

If he goes with that, I'll forgive him everything.

[Blackheart]

I think there's something you're missing.

Gollum swore an oath.

On the precious itself, or nearby it.

Oaths are very powerful in and of themsleves, but ESPECIALLY in Nordic mythology.

And the ring, in and of itself is a very powerful object, arguably the most powerful in Arda, and certainly in middle earth.

Not to mention the volksung sagas, and the whole relation to rings and oaths.

There is no way in the seven levels of niffelhiem that Tolkein was unaware of this.

Gollum was doomed from the moment he betrayed his oath.

It was nothing more or less than fate that he fell, and likely assumed Frodo's place as a sort of sacrifice...

But yes, putting that into drama will be tricky.
Perhaps the best way would be fore the ring itself to respond somehow to the environment, like emiting a flash or something, and cause gollum to stumble back into the fire.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Gollum swore an oath.

That's true; I'd forgotten that. And later

Frodo curses him: "if you touch it again you will be cast into the fire yourself"

Whatever they do I hope they don't go for the landslide option.

Lanelf - apologies for the crudeness! The moment

when Sauron realises what is going on in a moment of terrible clarity is another very powerful one from that scene and I hope they include it.

Is that better, Lizra?

[smaug_the_magnificent]

Yes, the Oath that Gollum gave is important, but the kernel (the critical aspect) at least in term's of significance from the author's perspective, is the act of pity, the act of grace on Frodo's behalf..

Because if it was just the "oath" given on the Precious, then it could just as easily have been fulfilled if the Hobbits had done what perhaps 99% of people (or Hobbits) would have done to Gollum if the same situation was played over.. That is, killed him - or rendered him insignificant (tied him up, for example)

All of us can think of countless moments throughout the book, and copious (justifiable) reasons, to warrant Sam or Frodo taking decisive action against Gollum.. And such an act, would have satisfied the wrath from the oath he was destined to break.. Even after his greatest sin, the most treacherous deceit against those he swore to guide (in Shelob's tunnel), Sam is given more than one occasion to carry out the doomed & deserved fate of Gollum as unrepentant oathbreaker.. But ironically enough, it was pity again that stayed Sam's hand too - on Orodriun, not long before the final earth-shattering events inside the mountain were to occur..

To suggest exclusively that the cause for Gollum's death *at that moment* was rooted in a dogmatic divine law about oathbreakers (however pertinent that may be) takes away what in my opinion saves Frodo in the eyes of the reader also.. Fate is intertwined with free will and the former illustrates Gollum's doom from the outset, while the latter indicates that even the very small, can alter the wheels of the world.. It is unequivocal, that without Frodo's compassion & understanding, Gollum would have been slain long before the drama of Orodruin took place, and as a result the fate of the Ring & of the world would have been cast into grave doubt...

Therefore Gollum's inability to keep his word or honour is not what saved Frodo or the Quest, because the passage of justice in this sphere is indiscriminate - (finite) justice of course, is not... Critically, the "passage" still needed to be determined, and it was only through perhaps the most significant virtue or quality of the human spirit, forgiveness, that this passage was sown, & through that, Middle Earth was in a way itself forgiven, and redeemed, saved..

I like the idea of the Ring awakening so to speak, in the film.. Certainly considering the way PJ has magnified the Ring's power (even in Bree!) there's little doubt that when the Ring is exposed in the chamber of its making, ****'s going to hit the fan! I think going back to my point about the ground underneath Gollum shifting.. I did say *slightly* .. I don't propose a massive slab falling from under him, but just a small crack that helps make his fall more believable (from a film's point of argument).. If Gollum were to just dance in delight & then lose his footing & fall as a result, this mightn't come across in the best way on screen.. A combination of his delirious state, the loose ground under foot, and the Ring itself becoming autonomous in some sort of vociferous outburst, will perhaps highlight & delineate the fall of Gollum more satisfactorily.. All in all, the nuts & bolts of how he comes to fall into the abyss are irrelevant.. It is the quick succession of amazing events (unlooked for) at this pivotal moment, all together, that creates the most incredible drama you're ever likely to read - and you'd be a fool to question or doubt whether this apex will carry an effect of similar weight on screen.. I think it's made for cinema actually!

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Why? This is a Tolkien forum; I think we can assume people have read the books!

I can't really articulate my feelings on the Gollum-falling business. I'll just say that the 'With a last wail Precious...' sentence was utter brilliance. *rereads and cries*

This IS the "Movie" discussion of the forum, Eg.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
That's true; I'd forgotten that. And later


Whatever they do I hope they don't go for the landslide option.

Lanelf - apologies for the crudeness! The moment

Is that better, Lizra?

I like it! Thanks!
We are in the movie forum, there are probably people visiting who have not read the books. To just flat out blab the finale is.......somewhat icky! (IMO)
A man saw me reading RoTK at my son's karate class. He said...."Hey! Does the little dude make it?" I wouldn't tell!

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I suppose we presume that everyone in the known universe knows the ending from the books.

However, that's no guarantee the films will follow the it to the letter. Seeing how the films are different from the books is one of the reasons for going to see them (e.g. I liked Arwen's expanded role).

Would anyone seriously think that Sauron

would get the Ring and plunge the world into eternal darkness???

[Artanis]

There is no way you can handle this differently from the book and not destroy the essence of the power of the Ring. No one is able to destroy the Ring! Not Frodo, not Sam, not Gollum. Unless it happens by an accident. And we know that 'Gollum may still have a part to play yet, for good or ill'. Frodo's pity must have a bearing! And there's the oath, as has been said already.

Originally posted by The Gaffer
(e.g. I liked Arwen's expanded role).

[Sween]

I would not be too surprised if Gollum acctually casts himself into the fire to stop Sauron gaining the ring! I know Tolkien toyed with this idea for some time before decideding upon the ending he did.

I just hope they find some more believeiable way for Gollum to fall into the fire because i feel it will just be anti climatic

[smaug_the_magnificent]

I know it's difficult but there's really no way they can conceivably toy with scenarios in relation to Gollum's fall & how that comes about, without risking one of the foundation stones of the story..

At the same time I think it would be prudent for me to say there's of course the possibility of different avenues so far unforseen by myself that could allow the same effect while maintaining the link between Frodo's acquiescence towards the treacherous character who inadvertently saves the world..

Even a relatively minor variance like, for example - let's say Sam, after seeing the drama unfold & Gollum arresting the One Ring from Frodo, decides to charge at Gollum.. Gollum then balks momentarily at the sight of Sam charging towards him, and as a result loses his footing which causes him to fall. It may seem a trivial change, I guess mainly because if this were to play out then you could still conclude that Gollum wasn't pushed, but fell after he lost his balance (much the same as in the books)

BUT, to me, the role of Sam in this hypothetical is far too great to disregard as it subsequently throws the whole interplay that Tolkien was cleverly building towards upside down! Without the charge of Sam the One Ring probably would have endured, & everything come to ruin & loss. The intervention from a character who'd wanted Gollum dead long ago would as a consequence, in a strange twist of fate, allow that same character to get what he had wanted all along.. I guess in a sense there's similarities between the aforesaid hypothetical & what actually happened at least in terms of fate, but I think I'm right in saying it's the kind of fate Tolkien didn't want shown or had any interest in portraying..

Sam wanted to do the practical level-headed thing in relation to Gollum, whilst Frodo was intent on doing the righteous & fair thing, and in the end The Lord of the Rings wanted to teach us that the latter gives us the greater rewards (sometimes, unlooked for!)

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Artanis

Sorry, I should've marked that as a spoiler too. But it was well worth sacrificing Glorfindel, and putting up with the rather flimsy chase to the Fords, to see Liv Tyler in pointy ears. *ducks*

Very well put, Smaug. It will be disappointing (indeed, suicidal on PJ's part) if the ending loses this twist.

Of course, it's not the actual ending of the story, is it? To me, the full exposition of this theme is in the Scouring and the Grey Havens chapters (Frodo's pacificism and his loss). I wonder whether/how these bits will be worked in.

[Black Breathalizer]

The key to making the ending work is for it to feel natural and organic -- perhaps even biblical (ala Gandalf's charge in TTT) -- and to avoid at all costs making it feel fakey in any way.