shelob

zavron · 09-24-2002, 11:42 AM

is shelob one of the great spiders in the forest of mirkwood. because they are both described as the same

zavron

Lefty Scaevola · 09-24-2002, 12:28 PM

They are all descendants of Ungoliant, Melkor's ally/ememy in the first age. Shelob has been living in the Cirith Ungol from very acient times, and likely has not been to Mirkwood. A passage about her (last child of Ungoliant) likley means that she is a first generation child of Ungoliant, although "child" is sometimes used in the sense of descendant.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 09-24-2002, 08:35 PM

Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant. The Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring of Shelob and Spiders she met in the southern reaches of the Shadowy Mountains. Each appears to be smaller than the last.

The answer to your question is "no". Shelob never lived in Mirkwood, so far as is known. She was born in a place in Beleriand called Nan Dungortheb, the "Valley of Dreadful Death". Sometime after the First Age she came to live in the Shadowy Mountains on the border of Mordor and her offspring removed to Mirkwood.

Linarryl · 10-27-2002, 08:53 AM

I don't think she was.Bilbo killed one(spider from Mirkwood) easily, but Sam didn't have such a easy time with Shelob. SHelob was Ungoliant's child.

zavron · 10-27-2002, 12:21 PM

they were the offspring. I dont know why they weren't as strong as their mother maybe they were inbred and shelob cast them away. Plus it was easier to kill the spiders in the forest because there was some light and bilbo had more room to run about when frod o was in a pitch black cramped tunnel in the side of a cliff.

Blackboar · 12-16-2002, 01:16 PM

I didn't know that!!!

But then i don't know much!!

Lollypopgurl · 12-16-2002, 06:19 PM

Cool, I never thought about the spiders in Mirkwood being related to Shelob....

Beleg Strongbow · 12-17-2002, 09:29 AM

They were related, but not very closely. Ungoliant, I believe, gave rise to all spiders and Shelob was a little further up the food chain.

Ungoliant => Shelob => Mirkwood Spiders => today's spiders.

Insidious Rex · 01-15-2003, 07:02 PM

ok sorry for reviving this old thread but is it true Tolkien was very arachnaphobic and this is why so many of his most vile hidious monsters were spiders?

Wayfarer · 01-15-2003, 07:12 PM

Actually, I don't think that normal spiders were nescessarily bad or descendants of ungoliant, any more than normal wolves are bad or evil like the wargs.

Remember, shelob was an evil spirit in spider form. That doesn't mean the spider form itself is evil.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2003, 07:22 PM

I don't understand why I keep getting email notifications to this thread when I have never posted to it, but anyway, I agree with Wayfarer here. The great spiders of Middle-earth like Ungoliant and Shelob were maiar I believe, in spider form.

Insidious Rex · 01-15-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I don't understand why I keep getting email notifications to this thread when I have never posted to it,

well now youve gone and done it

Quote:

but anyway, I agree with Wayfarer here. The great spiders of Middle-earth like Ungoliant and Shelob were maiar I believe, in spider form.

...yes yes but what Im saying is I read somewhere and have heard on at least several occasions that in real life Tolkien was very arachnaphobic and I was just wondering if anyone could in fact verify this and perhaps this may have translated into his writing by having such hidious creatures like Ungoliant and Shelob and all the spiders in Mirkwood be so horrible and scary and demonic. I mean why ALL spiders? Why not have some snakes too? Or bats? Or centipedes? Or I dont know giant killer bees or something. Maybe spiders generated the most fear and disgust in Tolkien so he used this as a literary tool in his books... who knows....

Now as to the point of Ungoliant being a maiar well Ive always had issues with just what the heck Ungoliant was. I wont get into my wild theories here I dont think Ungoliant was your common every day giant evil killer spider maiar. No she was special

Shutting up now...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2003, 08:06 PM

Quote:

well now youve gone and done it

Ha ha! Well since I was getting the notifications anyway, I figured I might aswell put my 2 cents in.

As for Tolkien having a fear of spiders, I have never heard that, and I think Tolkien's works are packed full of other nasty critters. I don't recall anything about insects though.

***RÃan*** · 01-15-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ã‘Ã³lendil
Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant. The Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring of Shelob and Spiders she met in the southern reaches of the Shadowy Mountains.

*pictures a male spider approaching Shelob at a singles' bar and asking her to dance ....

*

Shadowfax · 01-15-2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
*pictures a male spider approaching Shelob at a singles' bar and asking her to dance .... *

...eew!

Falagar · 01-16-2003, 12:15 PM

I read in a biography that Tolkien was bitten by a spider when he was a kid (when he lived in South-Africa).

Insidious Rex · 01-16-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
I read in a biography that Tolkien was bitten by a spider when he was a kid (when he lived in South-Africa).

yes! thats the kind of thing i was referring to. would love to read that biography. and the spiders in africa can eat small dogs so it must have been a horrible experience for a child.

Finrod Felagund · 01-17-2003, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
They were related, but not very closely. Ungoliant, I believe, gave rise to all spiders and Shelob was a little further up the food chain.

Ungoliant => Shelob => Mirkwood Spiders => today's spiders.

There were also other large spiders in the mountainsof Mordor. They were huge but not quite as large as the Mirkwood spiders. The Mordor mountain spiders were also Shelob's offspring And I do believ that "todays spiders" or normal spiders, probably existed back then as well.

WallRocker · 01-17-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
Cool, I never thought about the spiders in Mirkwood being related to Shelob....

Yeah, that's a pretty cool idea!

Wayfarer · 01-17-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

why ALL spiders? Why not have some snakes too? Or bats? Or centipedes? Or I dont know giant killer bees or something.

Let's see... Giant Wolves maybe? Or Maiar in the form of Bats? Giant mutant Lizards that breath fire? Multi tentacled things in the water? Flying Beasts? Biting Flies with the red eye mark? Bees the size of a man's thumb?

Come on, what do you want, now?

09-24-2002, 11:42 AM	#1
zavron Chieftain of The Order of The Blue Flame Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: I am a Figment of your Imagination!!! OOOHHHH!!! Posts: 1,729	shelob is shelob one of the great spiders in the forest of mirkwood. because they are both described as the same zavron

09-24-2002, 08:35 PM	#3
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant. The Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring of Shelob and Spiders she met in the southern reaches of the Shadowy Mountains. Each appears to be smaller than the last. The answer to your question is "no". Shelob never lived in Mirkwood, so far as is known. She was born in a place in Beleriand called Nan Dungortheb, the "Valley of Dreadful Death". Sometime after the First Age she came to live in the Shadowy Mountains on the border of Mordor and her offspring removed to Mirkwood. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ã‘Ã³lendil : 09-24-2002 at 08:37 PM.

10-27-2002, 12:21 PM	#5
zavron Chieftain of The Order of The Blue Flame Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: I am a Figment of your Imagination!!! OOOHHHH!!! Posts: 1,729	they were they were the offspring. I dont know why they weren't as strong as their mother maybe they were inbred and shelob cast them away. Plus it was easier to kill the spiders in the forest because there was some light and bilbo had more room to run about when frod o was in a pitch black cramped tunnel in the side of a cliff.

12-16-2002, 06:19 PM	#7
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Cool, I never thought about the spiders in Mirkwood being related to Shelob.... __________________ a violinist...

12-17-2002, 09:29 AM	#8
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	They were related, but not very closely. Ungoliant, I believe, gave rise to all spiders and Shelob was a little further up the food chain. Ungoliant => Shelob => Mirkwood Spiders => today's spiders. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

09-24-2002, 12:28 PM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	They are all descendants of Ungoliant, Melkor's ally/ememy in the first age. Shelob has been living in the Cirith Ungol from very acient times, and likely has not been to Mirkwood. A passage about her (last child of Ungoliant) likley means that she is a first generation child of Ungoliant, although "child" is sometimes used in the sense of descendant.

10-27-2002, 08:53 AM	#4
Linarryl Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 160	I don't think she was.Bilbo killed one(spider from Mirkwood) easily, but Sam didn't have such a easy time with Shelob. SHelob was Ungoliant's child.

12-16-2002, 01:16 PM	#6
Blackboar Legolas's beloved sister and Queen of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Under the hill at Bag-end, Hobbiton the Shire Or Rivendell,I can't remember!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 1,086	I didn't know that!!! But then i don't know much!!

01-15-2003, 07:02 PM	#9
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	ok sorry for reviving this old thread but is it true Tolkien was very arachnaphobic and this is why so many of his most vile hidious monsters were spiders? __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

01-15-2003, 07:12 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Actually, I don't think that normal spiders were nescessarily bad or descendants of ungoliant, any more than normal wolves are bad or evil like the wargs. Remember, shelob was an evil spirit in spider form. That doesn't mean the spider form itself is evil. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-15-2003, 07:22 PM	#11
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	I don't understand why I keep getting email notifications to this thread when I have never posted to it, but anyway, I agree with Wayfarer here. The great spiders of Middle-earth like Ungoliant and Shelob were maiar I believe, in spider form. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-16-2003, 12:15 PM	#16
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I read in a biography that Tolkien was bitten by a spider when he was a kid (when he lived in South-Africa). __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

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