origin of orcs

Vinyafalasiel · 02-16-2002, 11:09 PM

erm...sorry this might seem really stupid but i was just wondering where the orcs/goblins came from? how do they multiply? i've read the hobbit and all 3 lotr books and i don't seem to remember reading where they come from. in the movie, it looked to me like they were being cloned.

MasterMothra · 02-17-2002, 12:54 AM

they were elves that fell in the favor of melkor originally. he corrupted them with his hatred for everything.

FrodoFriend · 02-17-2002, 03:00 AM

When the Valar first came to lead the Elves out of Middle Earth to Valinor, some of them were afraid and ran away. They ended up in Melkor's hands, and he tortured and twisted them into Orcs. The story is in The Silmarillion.

emplynx · 02-17-2002, 09:50 AM

FrodoFriend summed it up there... The Sil does not tell exactly what happened to the elves taken into (whatever Melkor's place was called). It is left as a slight mystery.

Ñólendil · 02-17-2002, 06:02 PM

It's not even that clear cut. Late in his life Tolkien decided the Orcs were made from Men, not Elves, so go figure.

Laurelyn · 02-17-2002, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
It's not even that clear cut. Late in his life Tolkien decided the Orcs were made from Men, not Elves, so go figure.

Really? He did? I didn't know that . . .

markedel · 02-17-2002, 07:44 PM

At the end of his life he drastically changed the mythology, so much so that it would be unrecognizable from that of the Silmarillion. I haven't seriously read Morgoth's Ring and the War of the Jewels but its all there.

Laurelyn · 02-17-2002, 07:50 PM

Okay! Wow, one really does learn something new every day!

Ñólendil · 02-18-2002, 03:56 PM

Yeah, the new mythological idea found in Morgoth's Ring was made by Tolkien because he thought his old one too primitive and 'absurd'. It had to be believable. The new one is more in accord with science. The Earth rotates around the Sun, which existed before it, and so on. It actually wasn't just at the end of Tolkien's life. Tar-Elenion pointed this out to me. Read Gimli's song about Durin in Mória. The Moon suspiciously exists when Durin the Deathless first awoke in what is known in the published Silmarillion as the Ages of Starlight. And there's scientific Middle-earth writings written in the 50s.

Wayfarer · 02-19-2002, 06:13 PM

Of course, anyone who seriously thinks about it will come to the conclusion that much of what passes for science is absurd.

***HOBBIT*** · 02-20-2002, 01:37 AM

Just my two cents: Lurtz: Growl, Growl.

Tar-Elendil · 04-23-2002, 08:29 PM

in the silmarillion it hints that some of the elves might have fallen into the hands of morgoth and he corrupted them..
it could have been also they were just his own creations of his malice...this is very similar where in the silmarillion it says the history of sauron is unclear and he could have been an elf..
although in other books it clearly states he was a Maiar of Aule

Wayfarer · 04-23-2002, 09:50 PM

Pods, you imbecile! Everybody knows they come from pods!

]: )

Seriously? Corrupted elves with some human blood.

Lady of Darkness · 04-24-2002, 03:56 PM

I just got to the part in the silmarillion where it tells about him having some spies amoung the Elves. I haven't gotten to the part where it talks about them being corrupted. and if they came from elves, why are they not able to stand the sun???

I might have read that part but I'm not sure since I was in school at the time.
Only 7 more weeks until summer Vacation!!!!!!!!!

Ñólendil · 04-24-2002, 10:02 PM

Quote:

and if they came from elves, why are they not able to stand the sun???

I think the idea is --whatever their origin -- the Orcs were 'made' in total darkness away from not only the Sun but probably the stars as well. And Melkor himself at least feared the Day-Star.

Ërendil · 05-25-2002, 04:22 PM

I always thought that orcs came from elves, but were twisted and mutilated. I don't know where i got the idea from but i didn't think that they were from man origin.

Wayfarer · 05-25-2002, 04:25 PM

Tolkien was ambiguous on that... he first said they came from elves, and later changed his mind and had them coming from men.

Ërendil · 05-25-2002, 04:44 PM

Does anyone know why he cahnged his mind?

Wayfarer · 05-25-2002, 05:18 PM

I don't. Dylan might.

I think that the most likely explaination is that they were a product of both, but twisted enough to be unrecognizeable.

ArwenEvenstar · 05-25-2002, 07:48 PM

I always thought that orcs (YUCKY) were ELves that Morgoth caught and *CeNsOrEd* them up.

02-16-2002, 11:09 PM	#1
Vinyafalasiel Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 15	origin of orcs erm...sorry this might seem really stupid but i was just wondering where the orcs/goblins came from? how do they multiply? i've read the hobbit and all 3 lotr books and i don't seem to remember reading where they come from. in the movie, it looked to me like they were being cloned.

02-17-2002, 12:54 AM	#2
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	they were elves that fell in the favor of melkor originally. he corrupted them with his hatred for everything. __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon.

02-17-2002, 03:00 AM	#3
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	When the Valar first came to lead the Elves out of Middle Earth to Valinor, some of them were afraid and ran away. They ended up in Melkor's hands, and he tortured and twisted them into Orcs. The story is in The Silmarillion. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-17-2002, 06:02 PM	#5
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	It's not even that clear cut. Late in his life Tolkien decided the Orcs were made from Men, not Elves, so go figure. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-17-2002, 07:44 PM	#7
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	At the end of his life he drastically changed the mythology, so much so that it would be unrecognizable from that of the Silmarillion. I haven't seriously read Morgoth's Ring and the War of the Jewels but its all there. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-17-2002, 09:50 AM	#4
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	FrodoFriend summed it up there... The Sil does not tell exactly what happened to the elves taken into (whatever Melkor's place was called). It is left as a slight mystery.

02-17-2002, 07:50 PM	#8
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Okay! Wow, one really does learn something new every day! __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-18-2002, 03:56 PM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Yeah, the new mythological idea found in Morgoth's Ring was made by Tolkien because he thought his old one too primitive and 'absurd'. It had to be believable. The new one is more in accord with science. The Earth rotates around the Sun, which existed before it, and so on. It actually wasn't just at the end of Tolkien's life. Tar-Elenion pointed this out to me. Read Gimli's song about Durin in Mória. The Moon suspiciously exists when Durin the Deathless first awoke in what is known in the published Silmarillion as the Ages of Starlight. And there's scientific Middle-earth writings written in the 50s. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-19-2002, 06:13 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Of course, anyone who seriously thinks about it will come to the conclusion that much of what passes for science is absurd. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-20-2002, 01:37 AM	#11
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	Just my two cents: Lurtz: Growl, Growl. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

04-23-2002, 08:29 PM	#12
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	in the silmarillion it hints that some of the elves might have fallen into the hands of morgoth and he corrupted them.. it could have been also they were just his own creations of his malice...this is very similar where in the silmarillion it says the history of sauron is unclear and he could have been an elf.. although in other books it clearly states he was a Maiar of Aule __________________ Why can we not be sober..

04-23-2002, 09:50 PM	#13
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Pods, you imbecile! Everybody knows they come from pods! ]: ) Seriously? Corrupted elves with some human blood. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

04-24-2002, 03:56 PM	#14
Lady of Darkness Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: the wild or my home Posts: 733	I just got to the part in the silmarillion where it tells about him having some spies amoung the Elves. I haven't gotten to the part where it talks about them being corrupted. and if they came from elves, why are they not able to stand the sun??? I might have read that part but I'm not sure since I was in school at the time. Only 7 more weeks until summer Vacation!!!!!!!!! __________________ Conform Consume OBEY!!!! I am Morwen, Lady of Darkness. Her head was bowed, from all the tears and pain, but she would rise again

05-25-2002, 04:22 PM	#16
Ërendil Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 389	I always thought that orcs came from elves, but were twisted and mutilated. I don't know where i got the idea from but i didn't think that they were from man origin. __________________ "You're one of the Abaharaki, oh I had forgotten. Look at me, I am completly drenched! I do hate the rain, it makes me so depressed..." "Hehehehe, moeru moeru!" "That's it, set it all on fire; we're gonna smoke out Escaflowne!" "Oh, I hit the wrong target... never mind that creature was useless to us anyway. Our orders were to get the girl? So he isn't our concern, we don't need him!" ^_^ Isn't Dilandau just fantastic? You just have to love the insane, murderous pyro :-D

05-25-2002, 04:25 PM	#17
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Tolkien was ambiguous on that... he first said they came from elves, and later changed his mind and had them coming from men. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

05-25-2002, 04:44 PM	#18
Ërendil Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 389	Does anyone know why he cahnged his mind? __________________ "You're one of the Abaharaki, oh I had forgotten. Look at me, I am completly drenched! I do hate the rain, it makes me so depressed..." "Hehehehe, moeru moeru!" "That's it, set it all on fire; we're gonna smoke out Escaflowne!" "Oh, I hit the wrong target... never mind that creature was useless to us anyway. Our orders were to get the girl? So he isn't our concern, we don't need him!" ^_^ Isn't Dilandau just fantastic? You just have to love the insane, murderous pyro :-D

05-25-2002, 05:18 PM	#19
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I don't. Dylan might. I think that the most likely explaination is that they were a product of both, but twisted enough to be unrecognizeable. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

05-25-2002, 07:48 PM	#20
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	I always thought that orcs (YUCKY) were ELves that Morgoth caught and CeNsOrEd them up. __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

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