How powerful were these 'revised' Balrogs really?

[Captain Stern]

A few new topics here on Entmoot have got me thinking on the whole Balrog/ Maiar issue again.

A few here in the know ( Inoldonil e.t.c ) seem to dismiss out of hand that any single Elf Lord could defeat this revised Balrog that Tolkien finaly decided upon.

I'm very skeptical about this.

Something to consider:

1. Gil Galad and Elendil vs Sauron.
Now I assume that Gil Galad being a Noldor Elf Lord had the lion's share of Sauron in that combat, even if he didn't and it was in fact 50/50 between Elendil and himself ( which I'm sure you'll agree it wasn't ) it doesn't matter. These 2 finaly defeated Sauron, although they died themselves. Sauron was more powerful than any Balrog, yet these two children of Illuvatar managed to defeat the most powerful Maia.

2. Gandalf vs Durin's Bane.
Gandalf/ Olorin was by no means one of the most powerful Maiar and this coupled by the fact that he had incarnated himself in a human form makes him even weaker than if he had clothed himself in a form of majesty or terror like the Balrog. I'm trusting Inoldonil's common sense on this one:

Gandalf may have had great physical endurance like Elves or greater than Elves, not just in journeys of hardihood but in mishaps that would break the Mannish body.

( that's in the thread 'Gandalf and Falling Damage' in the LOTR forum )

Also there's this passage from Unfinished Tales regarding Gandalf:

Most of the remaining writings on the Istari(as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illiegible. Of major interest however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of the council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë(And maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?), at which it was resolved that there should be three emissaries to Middle-Earth. "Who would go, for they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and must clothe themselves in flesh as so to treat on equality and trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearyness coming from the flesh." But only two came foward, Curumo who was Chosen from Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in gray, and having just entered from a journey seated himself at the end of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third Messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olórin declared he was much to weak for a task and that he feared Sauron. And Manwë said that was all the more reason he should go, and that he commanded Olórin.(Illiegible words that follow that seem to contain the word "Third") But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the Third"; and Curumo remembered it.

Maybe Durin's Bane was weakened because Gandalf broke his sword right at the begining of the battle on the bridge? Yet further along in the epic battle Gandalf doesn't seem to make use of the sword much, if at all.


Taking all of this into consideration do you still find it hard to contemplate that powerful Elf Lords of the 1st Age ( I won't bring Feanor into this conversation incase I get carried away )such as Fingolfin and Maedhros who were arguably more powerful than Gil Galad, could have defeated a Balrog or some other dark maia, and, perhaps, even have lived to tell the tale?

Tolkien said about these revised Balrogs that there were 3 or at the most 7 of them. I'm of the oppinion that there must have been 6 or 7 of them. It tends to balance things out a little.

[afro-elf]

I concur with the Captain.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor( the equivalent to the Christian's idea of Satan) seven times with wounds that did not heal.

And when he rode out to challenge Melkor none stayed Fingolfin's way for the minions of darkness thought that Orome had come himself.


And Melkor did not willingly fight Fingolfin.


It is of my opinion that the POWERFUL of the CALAQUENDI could have stood against a revised Balrog.

Perhaps with the same result as they had in the early battles.

MAYBE the Noldor would be were remolded too.

With the description of Glorfindel AND Elvenwise in Rivendell in LOTR p 216-217 [H/C one volume ed]( maybe someone who can type better than I can post those couple of paragraphs) we can perhaps glean that they were a powerful lot themselves.

[CaranIstar]

I personally believe that in the latter days of the Third Age, no single Elf-lord could have defeated fallen Maiar one-on-one.... but the lords of the Elder Days, who knows? I can't remember offhand who killed Gothmog, but I do remember Fingolfin wounding Melkor, who was probably alot more powerful than Sauron, or any Balrog....

[AreteLaugh]

Interesting topic. In the latter ages who of the original Noldor (who had also been to Valinor ) was still around?

Galadriel? not exactly known for her single combat skills but in spirit perhaps she was the strongest. See had been to Valinor and seen the two trees, associated with many of the great among the Noldor, and was a bearer of one of the three rings.

Ciridan? Hmmm... Probably not. He had not been to Valinor and had given up his ring to Gandalf and is described as being old at the time of the WOTR.

Elrond? Perhaps. Although he had never been to Valinor he was a ring bearer and if not involved in actually taking the ring from Sauron, he was evidently close by because he and Ciridan offered counsel to Isildur.

Doubtlessly I am forgetting some worthies who deserve mention...

It is intersting to note the behavior of the Balrog of Moria. In the first age Balrogs came forth in open war against the elves, even engaging them in single combat. Gothmog had a bodyguard of trolls and must have needed them otherwise why would he have had them. This type of behavior is absent in the Balrog of Moria. He does not venture forth and assault Lorien or Rivendell. In fact I know of no mention of him leaving the Moria at all (with the possible exception of his battle with Gandalf/Olorin)! If he had nothing to fear why would he not go forth? Perhaps he did have something to fear either from the White Council or the elves.

Incidentially it was Ecthelion who slew and was slain by Gothmog,Lord of Balrogs, during the fall of Gondolin.

[Ñólendil]

Actually I think there are a few Elves that could have won a battle of single combat with a 'revised Balrog'. Fëanáro, Lúthien and a handful of others. Afterall, some of the Elves (like Finrod) were almost Maian in their magical power (and Lúthien was Maian). But these battles would be very long, and the Elves involved would need all the magic and strength they could get. Fëanáro and Lúthien were the greatest of the Eldar, so they'd have the best chance I think.

It's very hard to say.

[afro-elf]

AreteLaugh

You are forgetting Glorfindel.

[Captain Stern]

You've changed you'r tune Inoldonil!!!

[Kevin McIntyre]

This is an interesting thread. In Tolkiens world, an individuals ability to contest with a great enemy is often not what it appears to be. Often times one characters accomplishments are created by the 'fate' wrapped around the character's story. Many accomplishments of Beren can be seen in this light. Many of Tolkiens heroes rise to the occasion, so in that sense there is no telling which one would give a Balrog a fight.

[Ñólendil]

Good point Kevin, though I think we can all agree that Sam Gamgee isn't much match for Durin's Bane.

Captain Stern, I think it was changing last I debated with you on this. I still don't like Faenor in a fight with a Balrog, but he stands a chance. As I said before, maybe he could hold his own against more than one for a while.

[Kevin McIntyre]

yea that would be taking the whole concept of fate to a rather extreme end. Who knows could be one of those elephant and mouse things.

[Michael Martinez]

Tolkien wrote that taking a corporeal form made any of the Valar or Maiar vulnerable to a certain degree. Their vulnerability was that physical bodies could be harmed or even destroyed, although it might require tremendous forces to achieve such harm or destruction.

In revising the mythology, Tolkien decided that the Balrogs would not have served Melkor as mounted shock troops, but instead were individually more terrible and powerful. And yet, even when he was writing his last thoughts about Glorfindel, Tolkien never abandoned the idea that Glorfindel had sacrificed himself and slain a Balrog. Tolkien seems convinced that the most dedicated and powerful warriors of the Eldar could at least achieve that much.

But such a feat would be highly unusual. The business with battalions of Elves slaying hundreds of Balrogs (as in "The Fall of Gondolin") was consigned to the detritus of past mythologies.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by AreteLaugh
Galadriel? not exactly known for her single combat skills but in spirit perhaps she was the strongest. See had been to Valinor and seen the two trees, associated with many of the great among the Noldor, and was a bearer of one of the three rings.

Actually I think Galadriel was a large and tall woman and known as a skilled athlete and powerful fighter in Valinor.
But taking on a Balrog... Well I don´t know...

[AreteLaugh]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Actually I think Galadriel was a large and tall woman and known as a skilled athlete and powerful fighter in Valinor.
But taking on a Balrog... Well I don´t know...

Where do you find Galadriel being described as "a powerful fighter"? I could not remember or find any reference to Galadriel either leading troops or engaging in single combat. My impression of her has been that she was more of a political leader than a warrior. Ecthelion was career military and at the top of the heap in Gondolin when he slew the Balrog (and was slain in turn). Still I think Galadriel deserves mention because of the strength of her spirit and her status as a ring bearer.

[Michael Martinez]

In one of his last letters, Tolkien wrote that Galadriel was very athletic in her youth in Valinor. In Unfinished Tales, Christopher explains in "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" that his father had decided to make many changes to their story in the last year of his life. In that final phase, Galadriel actually fought beside the Teleri of Alqualonde against the Noldor, and she and Celeborn left Aman separately.

Regrettably, I think people take that account too seriously. I believe Tolkien would eventually have rejected it, since Celeborn would have been Galadriel's first cousin, and elsewhere he had written that the Eldar did not marry close relatives.

[easterlinge]

Glorfindel killed a Balrog the first time, he could probably do it again.

[bropous]

See, I think we get into trouble when we use these "bits and snatches" from letters to reconcile the inconsitencies involved in LotR and Silmarillion. I even think that trying to match completely the writings in the Silmarillion and LotR kind of gets us off course as well.

I point out again that The Silmarillion was not written in its final form by J.R.R. but that Christopher edited a lot of unfinished writings to produce it. and a wonderful piece of work it is, and I love it dearly, but it is not a finished work of the Master. Were it so, I feel a lot of these issues would be unmoot.

As for whether any of the Elves could face a Valaraukar one-on-one in the Third Age, I'm not so sure that any who still existed could. The Valaraukar, as "renegade" Maiar, were in no way respectful of any constraint placed by the Valar upon using their powers in Middle-Earth. They could use every bit of their power, unrestrained, and were a tremendously powerful force to face. Gandalf as the Grey qualied at the approach of the Balrog in Moria, even as he gathered himself up to face it.

And that battle, between Mithrandir and the Valaraukar, even while wearing the Ring of Cirdan, nearly destroyed him. It took a long time to fight the Balrog, and though it fled from the depths of Moria to the top of Caradhras to get away from Gandalf, it did turn and face him again, and the battle on the mountaintop actually brought the top part of the mountain down.

The Balrog of Moria was not just a physical fighter, it also cast dark magic, and Gandalf was sorely pressed to master it. I do not think that even Elrond Half-Elven with his Ring, nor Glorfindel Elf-Lord, nor Gildor the High Elf could have faced the Valaraukar magic-for-magic without being destroyed. Mithrandir was more powerful in this aspect than any of the Elven left in Middle-Earth.

No, I do not believe any in Middle-Earth could have faced and bested the Balrog without being destroyed, except for Olorin, or possibly Curunir.

As for Galadriel supposing to be some super-athlete and warrior-maiden, I'm sorry, I can't find anything in Tolkien's finished works to support that assertion. It seems a bit of a stretch.

Just this Elven Warrior's humble opinions...

[afro-elf]

Isn't there saomething about:

A) Olorin ( gandalf) not being the most powerful istari and they sent him because he was afraid.

B) That NONE save Sauron himself could take Gladriel.

C) As mike noted above when tolkien revised things in the LOTR Glorfindel and the Balrog where revised. He "beat" one once; he could do it again


With the first two, we have the rings to augment their power.

Elrond with the ring also kept Sauron at bay.

[bropous]

But something about those subjects you listed from where, afro-elf? As stated above, I think it important to consider from which source one draws these inferences. If it is from J.R.R.'s letters, then I don't think it holds much water, because Tolkien had not edited and re-edited those writings like he did the LotR. If it is from the Silmarillion, again, I'm not totally convinced it can be relied upon as well as can be the LotR, again because the Master himself had not completed his extensive re-editing process.

No slap at Christopher, he knows his father's works and thoughts on his works better than anyone else, but he is not J.R.R., and had "Ronald" himself completed the Silmarillion, I do not believe a lot of the inconsistencies would not have been reconciled.

You folks are making some very good points, though, and certainly grist for the thought-mill.

[Kevin McIntyre]

How much power do the elven-rings provide in battle? I thought their power was to preserve life. Strength of heart or character is perhaps enhanced, but does a posseser of one of these rings get butt-kicking ability?

[bropous]

Probably not a heck of a lot of power as to fighting, but a bit of help on the preservation side, I would imagine.