Suspected bomber shot in London

Draken · 07-22-2005, 05:57 AM

Breaking news, suspected suicide bomber shot by police at Stockwell Tube station.

The Gaffer · 07-22-2005, 08:49 AM

It's the zero tolerance policy for fare dodgers.

According to bystanders they jumped on top of him and unloaded about 5 shots into him. Some claims that he had some sort of bomb belt on.

In which case, gaun yersels. If these are the guys from yesterday, that's some pretty impressive sleuthing.

inked · 07-22-2005, 07:10 PM

See my post and links in the RELIGIOUS thread on Terrorism.... Posted today at 608PM CST.

Snowdog · 07-25-2005, 09:47 AM

.... if this guy was soo 'innocent' as the media is now claiming, then why run from police? I have no pity for this guy whatsoever.

sun-star · 07-25-2005, 09:55 AM

It seems he may have been in the country on an expired visa.

Link

It's very regrettable and of course one wishes these things didn't happen, but it doesn't seem that the police had much choice.

***HOBBIT*** · 07-25-2005, 12:48 PM

no pity for a guy who was shot dead (5 shots) who was not a criminal? I haven't read all the stories - but he was Brazilian. Maybe he didn't understand english too well and didn't get what the police were shouting at him.

Wouldn't you run and get scared if foreign people were shouting at you and pointing guns at you?

They had to shoot a guy with no weopon 5 times?

The Gaffer · 07-25-2005, 12:53 PM

Changes in the rules of engagement allow the police to go for head shots if they suspect a person is a bomber.

Tragic, clearly the bloke was running because he didn't want to get chucked out of the country. Not a capital offence, IMO.

Tragic also for the guys that killed him, who have to live with it.

sun-star · 07-25-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

They had to shoot a guy with no weopon 5 times?

No weapon? They thought he had a bomb strapped to his chest! There are some things which have to be clarified about what happened - such as why they followed the man from his house without confronting him and only shot him as he boarded the train - but there's no question they believed he was a suicide bomber. If he had been, more innocent people than one would have paid for a police error.

inked · 07-25-2005, 03:51 PM

For once Gaffer and Sun-star and I all seem to agree. The situation was such that action needed to be taken. The bloke ran.

If the police say "STOP!", one should. That's the lesson to be taken.

Nerdanel · 07-25-2005, 04:46 PM

i know far too little about the situation to be able to judge it.. i actually think we all do. if i was somewhere in southern america (or elsewhere) and the police would come running after me with their guns, i might run, because it's an instinct. sometimes the body reacts faster than the brain.. isn't that human?

my sympathies for the shot person's family and friends, and for the police that shot him.

Butterbeer · 07-25-2005, 04:54 PM

HOBBIT: the facts are (so far) he DID speak very good english having worked over here for a number of years ... i see where you are coming from but in truth cannot agree ... so19 were under strict rules of engagment to shoot to the head in such potentially serious citrcumstances ... partly becasue shooting to the chest might detonate an explosion and thus kill innocent lives (of course in this case that also has has proved horribly true) but again were you the officer involved would you not do the same being a (given strict orders to do so in such a position) firmly beleiving at this point that he had acted in a irrefutiably suspiscous manner and that any fraction second delay Might result in more innocent deaths being incurred?

You cannot in any way blame the Met or SO19 for this.

It is of course tragic and i feel genuinely for the innocent's family ... but in a way you must feel for the officer who unloaded those five .. because he did the right thing at the time only to find out it hadn't ( in hindsight) been right.

he has to live with that forever ... however he can stand tall and proud in my eyes because whatever the sad facts of it HE DID DO THE RIGHT THING in that situation ... what more can we ask of him? Not his fault nor any blame for him to be doing his right and proper (and even in this scenario MORAL ?) duty ...

What if he had been a bomber? as they certainly had enough cause at the time as they chased him breathless down the underground as he ran away hurtling over barriers, to believe?

As they have been trained by the Isrealis dealing with Hama's bombers .. you have a split second decision time between life and death ( which may or may not include many other lifes beyond your own) to make that call ...

of course it is sad that another innocent should be added to the terrorists list ... and i in no way wish the Met to have any shoot to kill policy unless (in this case) justified, nor to be frank will you find the Met do either (in general)

but the key point is the Met must for the sake of all have the power when needed to deliver a fast and decisive response to any credible and clear threat.

One thing i will say, i have been impressed by the open and candid response that has been made to admit the deceased was not a bomber ... of course it is a tragedy... a very real one ... but the threat is very real too ... and the MET's response of quickly and unequivoqly admititting it, (that he was innocent) gains my respect for the position they are in just now!

The Met didn't hide behind supterfuge or delay they came right out and said he was innocent ... not an easy thing to do, but right! in the same way we cannot blame the officer in any way for at the time doing the right thing ( as he had been told to do and had evaluated the situation .... He could have been an active bomber in which case he would probably have been a dead HERO.

best
BB

Insidious Rex · 07-25-2005, 05:07 PM

I think the reason he ran was because his VISA had expired. Yes, quite a stupid move on his part. And we certainly cant blame the police for what they did. They had little choice and had to make split second decisions based on what they thought was a potential bomber. I consider this simply another casualty of the terrorists quite frankly. This is one fantastic example of why we shouldnt lump people together by race or religion when it comes to fighting terrorism. Not that this was the case in this incident but this is a perfect example of what could happen when you build a policy around the kind of thinking that tells you to suspect all muslims or suspect all dark skinned people. You can end up shooting an innocent Brazilian.

Butterbeer · 07-25-2005, 05:43 PM

I agree IR without any debate ... we should remember that ... but it does not in any way imply we are soft on terrorism nor blind to it's causes ...

but we should not IMHO blame in this particluar circumstance the sad unhappy but imho correct reply ....

to me the key point here is the deceased ( to his family and to all innocents killed or maimed or tortured everywhere, i can only as a man say, may you find peace and a better life after this and hopefully find the forgiveness to those that were not here given) but having said that, and this is in no way personal to the innocent victim here or to his family or all those wherever they may be of whatever faith, race or beleif, that are as a singular human being on this earth abused or killed or maimed in this imperfect earth ...

this being in no way singular to them ... i, for one, cannot EVER condone any acts of terrorism in any cause that are by nature so indiscriminate or so geared so (and this is the point to me) so determinedly against such a wide held beleif as the "west" or any (to my mind) perverted doctrine of any woprd of any God.

i do agree the vast majority of both all major accepted religions and include evenly Muslims here do not adhere to the mindless and soul-less slaughter of innocents ... indeed you will not find it hard to find a majority of Muslim's quoting the Koran saying it is against the Koran to kill 'innocents' ... but i fear it is now not truly about faithful people or religions but about real/world politics and greed and hate that we are truly discussing here ...

in that sense we have to be real, alive and alert to what endangers us ... but i do agree to also be open minded in being very careful not to tar innocent, ordinary, likeable and true people with any HITLER-LIKE brush ...

Divisions cause divisions ... blood causes blood ... let us remember this but also NOT (and let's be very clear about this) LET US NOT GIVE AN INCH TO TERRORISTS because this can only fail ... we are dealing with those who do not consider rationalism as a respectful thing ... who are so entrenched in their viewpoint that it is a narrow dark explosive one-way route to oblivion)

so i agree do not judge the many by the few, do not throw away our hard fought freedoms for all in response to the smallest number of idiots (and worse) but do not let us be soft or weak in response because we will only be the worse off for it in the short AND long-term.

best

BB

Spock · 07-26-2005, 11:43 PM

Wearing a padded coat in 70+ weather, running when Police asked you to stop in a language you knew well for at least 5 yrs., vaulting over turnstile to get away from police and being forced tackled presented a situation where if the police had let his hands free the trip for the bomb would have gone off. You must render that indivicual immobile a.s.a.p. Had he had a bomb and exploded it while the police tried to sing to him or shoot him just in the leg, there would be more wailing and nashing of teath than there are now.

Nerdanel · 07-27-2005, 06:44 AM

am i completely wrong, or isn't there bombs that blow off only when the bomber loosens the grip? dead-man's something? just wondering.

Spock · 07-27-2005, 10:52 AM

Yep there are. They are called "dead man switches".Switches like that control the NYC subway motorcars. In most of the homicide bombings though the bomber must activate a switch or touch wires together as they travel a distance to reach their target and holding a "deadman's switch" that long isn't practical.

MrBishop · 07-27-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

Wearing a padded coat in 70+ weather, running when Police asked you to stop in a language you knew well for at least 5 yrs., vaulting over turnstile to get away from police and being forced tackled presented a situation where if the police had let his hands free the trip for the bomb would have gone off. You must render that indivicual immobile a.s.a.p. Had he had a bomb and exploded it while the police tried to sing to him or shoot him just in the leg, there would be more wailing and nashing of teath than there are now.

They were plain-clothes officers. Basically guy(s) with guns chasing him..so he ran. I wonder if he'd have run if they were actual cops in uniform... probably not.

The shoot to kill policy IS there for a reason, but they should've stopped him 'before' he got to the tube...not after. :shrug:

Spock · 07-27-2005, 03:33 PM

..And what part of "running when Police asked you to stop in a language you knew well for at least 5 yrs., vaulting over turnstile to get away from police" didn't you understand.?

Butterbeer · 07-27-2005, 04:04 PM

so what do you suggest Mr Bishop, that plain clothes police go around wearing a big flashing blue light on their head with speakers mounted to their shoulders blaring out a siren?

The Gaffer · 07-28-2005, 04:12 AM

Apparently the bloke had been mugged only a couple of weeks beforehand. Might have been jumpy about a bunch of plainclothes dudes pulling guns on him...

07-22-2005, 05:57 AM	#1
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	Suspected bomber shot in London Breaking news, suspected suicide bomber shot by police at Stockwell Tube station. __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

07-22-2005, 07:10 PM	#3
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	See my post and links in the RELIGIOUS thread on Terrorism.... Posted today at 608PM CST. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

07-25-2005, 09:47 AM	#4
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	.... if this guy was soo 'innocent' as the media is now claiming, then why run from police? I have no pity for this guy whatsoever. __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run."

07-25-2005, 09:55 AM	#5
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	It seems he may have been in the country on an expired visa. Link It's very regrettable and of course one wishes these things didn't happen, but it doesn't seem that the police had much choice. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

07-25-2005, 12:48 PM	#6
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	no pity for a guy who was shot dead (5 shots) who was not a criminal? I haven't read all the stories - but he was Brazilian. Maybe he didn't understand english too well and didn't get what the police were shouting at him. Wouldn't you run and get scared if foreign people were shouting at you and pointing guns at you? They had to shoot a guy with no weopon 5 times? __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

07-22-2005, 08:49 AM	#2
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	It's the zero tolerance policy for fare dodgers. According to bystanders they jumped on top of him and unloaded about 5 shots into him. Some claims that he had some sort of bomb belt on. In which case, gaun yersels. If these are the guys from yesterday, that's some pretty impressive sleuthing.

07-25-2005, 12:53 PM	#7
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Changes in the rules of engagement allow the police to go for head shots if they suspect a person is a bomber. Tragic, clearly the bloke was running because he didn't want to get chucked out of the country. Not a capital offence, IMO. Tragic also for the guys that killed him, who have to live with it.

07-25-2005, 03:51 PM	#9
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	For once Gaffer and Sun-star and I all seem to agree. The situation was such that action needed to be taken. The bloke ran. If the police say "STOP!", one should. That's the lesson to be taken. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

07-25-2005, 04:46 PM	#10
Nerdanel Spammer of the Happy Thread Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 3,512	i know far too little about the situation to be able to judge it.. i actually think we all do. if i was somewhere in southern america (or elsewhere) and the police would come running after me with their guns, i might run, because it's an instinct. sometimes the body reacts faster than the brain.. isn't that human? my sympathies for the shot person's family and friends, and for the police that shot him.

07-25-2005, 04:54 PM	#11
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	HOBBIT: the facts are (so far) he DID speak very good english having worked over here for a number of years ... i see where you are coming from but in truth cannot agree ... so19 were under strict rules of engagment to shoot to the head in such potentially serious citrcumstances ... partly becasue shooting to the chest might detonate an explosion and thus kill innocent lives (of course in this case that also has has proved horribly true) but again were you the officer involved would you not do the same being a (given strict orders to do so in such a position) firmly beleiving at this point that he had acted in a irrefutiably suspiscous manner and that any fraction second delay Might result in more innocent deaths being incurred? You cannot in any way blame the Met or SO19 for this. It is of course tragic and i feel genuinely for the innocent's family ... but in a way you must feel for the officer who unloaded those five .. because he did the right thing at the time only to find out it hadn't ( in hindsight) been right. he has to live with that forever ... however he can stand tall and proud in my eyes because whatever the sad facts of it HE DID DO THE RIGHT THING in that situation ... what more can we ask of him? Not his fault nor any blame for him to be doing his right and proper (and even in this scenario MORAL ?) duty ... What if he had been a bomber? as they certainly had enough cause at the time as they chased him breathless down the underground as he ran away hurtling over barriers, to believe? As they have been trained by the Isrealis dealing with Hama's bombers .. you have a split second decision time between life and death ( which may or may not include many other lifes beyond your own) to make that call ... of course it is sad that another innocent should be added to the terrorists list ... and i in no way wish the Met to have any shoot to kill policy unless (in this case) justified, nor to be frank will you find the Met do either (in general) but the key point is the Met must for the sake of all have the power when needed to deliver a fast and decisive response to any credible and clear threat. One thing i will say, i have been impressed by the open and candid response that has been made to admit the deceased was not a bomber ... of course it is a tragedy... a very real one ... but the threat is very real too ... and the MET's response of quickly and unequivoqly admititting it, (that he was innocent) gains my respect for the position they are in just now! The Met didn't hide behind supterfuge or delay they came right out and said he was innocent ... not an easy thing to do, but right! in the same way we cannot blame the officer in any way for at the time doing the right thing ( as he had been told to do and had evaluated the situation .... He could have been an active bomber in which case he would probably have been a dead HERO. best BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-25-2005 at 04:57 PM.

07-25-2005, 05:07 PM	#12
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	I think the reason he ran was because his VISA had expired. Yes, quite a stupid move on his part. And we certainly cant blame the police for what they did. They had little choice and had to make split second decisions based on what they thought was a potential bomber. I consider this simply another casualty of the terrorists quite frankly. This is one fantastic example of why we shouldnt lump people together by race or religion when it comes to fighting terrorism. Not that this was the case in this incident but this is a perfect example of what could happen when you build a policy around the kind of thinking that tells you to suspect all muslims or suspect all dark skinned people. You can end up shooting an innocent Brazilian. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

07-25-2005, 05:43 PM	#13
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	I agree IR without any debate ... we should remember that ... but it does not in any way imply we are soft on terrorism nor blind to it's causes ... but we should not IMHO blame in this particluar circumstance the sad unhappy but imho correct reply .... to me the key point here is the deceased ( to his family and to all innocents killed or maimed or tortured everywhere, i can only as a man say, may you find peace and a better life after this and hopefully find the forgiveness to those that were not here given) but having said that, and this is in no way personal to the innocent victim here or to his family or all those wherever they may be of whatever faith, race or beleif, that are as a singular human being on this earth abused or killed or maimed in this imperfect earth ... this being in no way singular to them ... i, for one, cannot EVER condone any acts of terrorism in any cause that are by nature so indiscriminate or so geared so (and this is the point to me) so determinedly against such a wide held beleif as the "west" or any (to my mind) perverted doctrine of any woprd of any God. i do agree the vast majority of both all major accepted religions and include evenly Muslims here do not adhere to the mindless and soul-less slaughter of innocents ... indeed you will not find it hard to find a majority of Muslim's quoting the Koran saying it is against the Koran to kill 'innocents' ... but i fear it is now not truly about faithful people or religions but about real/world politics and greed and hate that we are truly discussing here ... in that sense we have to be real, alive and alert to what endangers us ... but i do agree to also be open minded in being very careful not to tar innocent, ordinary, likeable and true people with any HITLER-LIKE brush ... Divisions cause divisions ... blood causes blood ... let us remember this but also NOT (and let's be very clear about this) LET US NOT GIVE AN INCH TO TERRORISTS because this can only fail ... we are dealing with those who do not consider rationalism as a respectful thing ... who are so entrenched in their viewpoint that it is a narrow dark explosive one-way route to oblivion) so i agree do not judge the many by the few, do not throw away our hard fought freedoms for all in response to the smallest number of idiots (and worse) but do not let us be soft or weak in response because we will only be the worse off for it in the short AND long-term. best BB

07-26-2005, 11:43 PM	#14
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Wearing a padded coat in 70+ weather, running when Police asked you to stop in a language you knew well for at least 5 yrs., vaulting over turnstile to get away from police and being forced tackled presented a situation where if the police had let his hands free the trip for the bomb would have gone off. You must render that indivicual immobile a.s.a.p. Had he had a bomb and exploded it while the police tried to sing to him or shoot him just in the leg, there would be more wailing and nashing of teath than there are now.

07-27-2005, 06:44 AM	#15
Nerdanel Spammer of the Happy Thread Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 3,512	am i completely wrong, or isn't there bombs that blow off only when the bomber loosens the grip? dead-man's something? just wondering.

07-27-2005, 10:52 AM	#16
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Yep there are. They are called "dead man switches".Switches like that control the NYC subway motorcars. In most of the homicide bombings though the bomber must activate a switch or touch wires together as they travel a distance to reach their target and holding a "deadman's switch" that long isn't practical. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-27-2005, 03:33 PM	#18
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	..And what part of "running when Police asked you to stop in a language you knew well for at least 5 yrs., vaulting over turnstile to get away from police" didn't you understand.? __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-27-2005, 04:04 PM	#19
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	so what do you suggest Mr Bishop, that plain clothes police go around wearing a big flashing blue light on their head with speakers mounted to their shoulders blaring out a siren?

07-28-2005, 04:12 AM	#20
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Apparently the bloke had been mugged only a couple of weeks beforehand. Might have been jumpy about a bunch of plainclothes dudes pulling guns on him...

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