RELIGIOUS Debate on Terroristm-who, why, etc.

[Spock]

Ok guys if you want to debate oil, world government or whatever, perhaps we should split this off.

Otherwise, please stay with the topic which deals with the incidents in London.

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by Spock

At least the authorities were able to move swiftly and get a positive result. I fear here in the USA it would take forever, if ever, to accomplish what the Metro Police did.

Uh, they new who the killers of 9/11 were right away here in NY, and they immedietly started down the 'sacking' trail....did you forget how quickly we knew who had done it and how?

[inked]

POINTS TO PONDER FROM THE ABOVE

There are no civilians in those opposed to Islam.

Al-Siba'i: "The term 'civilians' does not exist in Islamic religious law. Dr. Karmi is sitting here, and I am sitting here, and I'm familiar with religious law. There is no such term as 'civilians' in the modern Western sense. People are either of Dar Al-Harb or not...


Those not with us are NOT of us.

Al-Siba'i: "These associations do not represent the Muslim public. They collaborate with the British police for certain interests. They want an 'English Islam,' and not the Islam that was sent to the Prophet Muhammad. If Al-Qa'ida indeed carried out this act, it is a great victory for it. It rubbed the noses of the world's eight most powerful countries in the mud. This victory is a blow to the economy..."


IT's not really our fault, it's yours.

Al-Siba'i: "I think that British Prime Minister Tony Blair made a grave error when he spoke before the investigation and claimed that the perpetrators of these acts were acting in the name of Islam. I think that he will pay the price for this grave error in the future. No possibility should be ruled out. We do not rule out the possibility that it was done by the intelligence agency of another Western country hostile to Britain. We do not rule out countries... or some Zionist Americans who wanted to overshadow the G-8 summit.


But we are really, really happy that it may be our fault.

But at the same time, we do not rule out the Al-Qa'ida organization. It's been claimed that Al-Qa'ida died in Afghanistan, and was buried in the caves there. And behold: it was resurrected after the American occupation of Iraq. Moreover, Al-Qa'ida controls the war agenda in Iraq. It is the Al-Qa'ida organization in the Land of the Two Rivers [Iraq], headed by Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi, that imposes its policies, to the extent that the Egyptian government was forced to... It was forced to recall [its ambassador], and other countries are afraid to send ambassadors there."...


There will be more, infidels.

Al-Siba'i: "I think that British Prime Minister Tony Blair made a grave error when he spoke before the investigation and claimed that the perpetrators of these acts were acting in the name of Islam. I think that he will pay the price for this grave error in the future. No possibility should be ruled out.


The war on terror is unlike any previous conflict familiar to Westerners. And the Jihad hasn't changed in 1.4 millenia. Think about it!

[The Gaffer]

Inked, I noticed that you left out the quote:

claimed that the perpetrators of these acts were acting in the name of Islam

On that point, he is correct. No credible claim has been made as yet.

But I profoundly disagree with the general thrust of this article, which seems to be saying that there is something fundamental and specific within Islam that is the problem here.

It is not: it is murderousness that is the problem. Islam is just the excuse. If we see this as an inevitable "clash of civilisations" thing we are falling into their trap. That's how the want us to see it so they can recuit more nutters.

One of the positive outcomes of this kind of atrocity might be a greater engagement of such extremism within the Muslim community. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm

Let's not jeopardise that.

[Draken]

Sorry Inked, disagree. This is just another set of militants using just another ideology to stir up what disgruntlement there is among just another community. The 'War Against Terror' started for us in the 1970s (and for parts of the Commonwealth, a good deal earlier). The faces and the causes change, but the threat is pretty much the same.

[Spock]

"We will fight any foe. We'll go anywhere. We will do whatever it takes to spread freedom and liberty." JFK

[inked]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Inked, I noticed that you left out the quote:



On that point, he is correct. No credible claim has been made as yet.

But I profoundly disagree with the general thrust of this article, which seems to be saying that there is something fundamental and specific within Islam that is the problem here.

It is not: it is murderousness that is the problem. Islam is just the excuse. If we see this as an inevitable "clash of civilisations" thing we are falling into their trap. That's how the want us to see it so they can recuit more nutters.

One of the positive outcomes of this kind of atrocity might be a greater engagement of such extremism within the Muslim community. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm

Let's not jeopardise that.

LIKE THIS HAS WORKED IN EGYPT without terrorist involvement, Gaffer?
http://www.charismanews.com/a.php?ArticleID=11506

And, by the by, didn't Mr. Chamberlain's appeasement policies stop a certain terrorist in Germany so that there was "peace in our time"? Your last sentence is pure appeasement, IMHO. I recall how effective the Deutsch volk were in stopping their leaders.

[Oz!]

Inked, you really do live in the most blinkered world don't you?

Some of the worst cases of genocide ever happened very recently when Serbian Orthodox Christians in Bosnia-Herzegovina claimed a "muslim invasion" as an excuse for their actions........should we tar all christians with the same brush?

You have to search pretty hard to find a more intolerant group than christians, that is, if we are claiming that all christians have the same agenda, as you imply the religion of Islam has........anyone who has read both the Qu'ran and the Bible religious text realises that their is far more war, murder and genocide (by god's decree in many cases) in the bible

In modern times everyone from Hitler to Bush is claming that war is done "because they believe it is gods will" ..... be a good chap and don't point fingers until you are sure the finger is pointed in the right direction?

[inked]

OZ!,

Welcome to the Moot. I'd say you have blinkers too. Now that we have done that, care to do enumerations of atrocities by the "religion of peace" in Africa today? But we might need a separate thread if we are going to head that way. Or is it only Christians who do bad things? Atrocities 101 is pretty much an Islamic history, truth be told.

[inked]

Then there is this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071401030.html

A little hopeful, but time will tell.

[Spock]

Inked Posted: Atrocities 101 is pretty much an Islamic history, truth be told.

Yep, Africa, Middle East, Indonesia, and historically. Yes Christians had their period but over the long hall Islam wins hands down; or should that be hands off.

[Insidious Rex]

And Im sure the nut jobs and radicals who represent .00001% of those who follow Islam are quite delighted with the outright endorsment of their thinking as being the word of Islam as you are giving them here.

Quick! Its Christians vs. Muslims again! winner moves on to play the match between the Hindus and the Jews! Get your pom poms. What do we learn from this children? That the most important thing about being in a "religion" is that you oppose other religions and use every opportunity possible to say we are better then them.

[Spock]

Over the long haul, Jews didn't want to conquer everyone nor convert. Christians wanted to preserve what they had and Crusaded to hold it and/or take back what they believed was "theirs". Islam almost over took Europe until the Crusaders said "this far and no further" and took back the land. These things happened under the tenants of Islam and long before the words "fundamentalist or radical" were coined. It's just history, not predjudice. Indeed there is a book and many articles around which suggest a war of religion is happening; but we haven't realized it yet.

[inked]

O, I don't know, IR, the Communists under Stalin, Mao, Che, and all the lesser known "implementers" of Marx and Lenin's distorted political views were pretty adept at killing for beliefs, excuse me, "the right reasons". I think, on second thought, that I will retract Atrocity 101 being blamed on Islam. I will award the first and half of the second semesters to Communism (Old World and New) and a mere half a semester to Islam.

There now, feel better since we put it on a well-documented historical and rational footing verifiable by archived records and yet-surviving endurants of Communism and Islam?

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by inked

LIKE THIS HAS WORKED IN EGYPT without terrorist involvement, Gaffer?
http://www.charismanews.com/a.php?ArticleID=11506

And, by the by, didn't Mr. Chamberlain's appeasement policies stop a certain terrorist in Germany so that there was "peace in our time"? Your last sentence is pure appeasement, IMHO. I recall how effective the Deutsch volk were in stopping their leaders.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Because Egypt has some insane anti-Christian laws, that means we have to as well? I have never understood this argument of "look what they do, that means we have to do the same". I also don't see the value of "our religion is better than yours" type discussions.

The appeasement argument is also a pointless one IMO because you can never prove it one way or the other, just trade "oh yes it is, oh no it isn't" type barbs.

Christianity has its fundamentalists too. There are people here who think the Bible is literally true, homosexuality is a sin, evolution should not be taught in schools and God made the world in 6 days around 6,000 BC or something.

All religions have them. What we have to do is make sure that they have as little power and influence as possible.

And there has been plenty of terrorism in Egypt, btw.

[Janny]

It's one thing to believe that God made the world in 6 days, it's quite another to terrorise people because they disagree.

[The Gaffer]

Well, duh.

What about bombing the crap out of people because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong form of government?

It's less than 100 years since we in the West have had univeral suffrage. In some countries, as little as 50 years ago, black people didn't get to vote. I think it's profoundly arrogant to see our own culture as inherently superior.

I would hope that, in 50 years or so, we will look back on this period with horror at our willingness to expend innocent lives in pursuit of political goals.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by inked

O, I don't know, IR, the Communists under Stalin, Mao, Che, and all the lesser known "implementers" of Marx and Lenin's distorted political views were pretty adept at killing for beliefs, excuse me, "the right reasons". I think, on second thought, that I will retract Atrocity 101 being blamed on Islam. I will award the first and half of the second semesters to Communism (Old World and New) and a mere half a semester to Islam.

There now, feel better since we put it on a well-documented historical and rational footing verifiable by archived records and yet-surviving endurants of Communism and Islam?

I dont think you get it. the point is to use horrific events to take the opportunity to bash other religions and make a speech about how much better yours is then theres is a pathetic display on your account. and wholly missing the truth of what is actually going on. and worst of all is feeding back into the cycle of hate. those muslims are the bad ones! Theyve done everything bad in the world! they preech hate! no its not about a hand full of brain washed near psychopaths using this particular religion for their warped and mistaken notions of reality and to do truly utterly horrible things. its about the whole of religion! nice parasitic propaganda inked. you feed right into the hands of the terrorists themselves by giving them a million times the credit that they deserve...

[Janny]

[QUOTE=The Gaffer]Well, duh. [\quote]

Had to bring discourse back down to my level...

[quote]What about bombing the crap out of people because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong form of government?[\quote]

Morally the difference between targeting civilians or not is crucial.

I think it's profoundly arrogant to see our own culture as inherently superior.
I would hope that, in 50 years or so, we will look back on this period with horror at our willingness to expend innocent lives in pursuit of political goals.

It's not inherently superior. It just when the other side perpetrates such acts it's hard not to feel like that...

I would hope also people realise what civilisation is up against. I didn't want to be so dramatic about it, but it does seem to be 'civilisation' relative to 14th century... ok, maybe a little harsh on the 14th C.

[Spock]

Gee I'd give 'em 12th century or *earlier*.