Al qaeda: what they want....

[Ruinel]

{Under the risk that this thread will soon become either a "bash America" thread, or will become a thread where personal attacks will cause this thread to be closed... I open up a discussion.}
Doing some research online, just to try to understand what is going on in the world. I came across this from the BBC...

... [snip]...
These Jihadi warriors share the belief that they have an obligation to fight the oppressors of their Muslim brothers, from Palestinians in the Middle East to Muslims in Chechnya. And to all Jihadis, the chief oppressor is the United States, a nation they regard as the "Great Satan".
...[snip]...
The initial breakthrough came over Christmas 2000 when the German equivalent of the SAS burst in on a flat in Frankfurt. They arrested four men and uncovered an arsenal with bomb-making chemicals, weapons, cloned credit cards and false documents.

The men were all finally convicted of plotting to bomb Strasbourg. What was believed to be a reconnaissance video was found in the flat, its most prominent feature a lingering sequence on that city's famous Christmas market. That, investigators believed, was the intended target. If the bomb had gone off, there would have been carnage.
...[snip]...
The French had bitter experience of Algerian Islamic extremists, and had fought them for many years after their offshoots had carried out a series of bombings in Paris and Lille in the mid-90s.

The intelligence built up over this period by the French proved invaluable. The role of the UK's MI5 and Special Branch was also crucial since many Algerian extremists had sought refuge in London after the crackdown in France. The centre of the network was believed to be in London.
...[snip]...
But was the hand of al-Qaeda behind the network?

What appeared to be conclusive proof came from Italian intelligence agents who intercepted a phone call from Milan to Afghanistan. It was made by a suspected Egyptian terrorist, Es Sayed, who had fled to Italy.
...[snip]...
As David Veness chillingly warns, an attack on the UK is not a matter of if but when.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3476121.stm


a) What oppression of Muslims are they taking about?
b) What would make the US the "Great Satan", if they're plotting against all "Western" countries (meaning Europe, as well)?
c) What, if anything, would change their minds about "the West"?

[jerseydevil]

Well the only thing that would make them change their minds about the west is if everyone woman starts wearing a burka, stops talking to men, everyone becomes devout Muslims and all Jews die. That's basically what to will take for them not to hate us.

The other stuff is just a bunch of excuses for hating us. Why do think they bomb women and children in Iraq now and not our soldiers. Do you really think they want Iraqis to have a better life?

[Nerdanel]

I'll start by writing something off topic (sorry Ruinel):
They talk about Jihad in the article, like in so many other articles. I just want to remind you that there are two different Jihads: the big Jihad (don't know if that's the correct translation) and the small Jihad.
The big one is about fighting the evil that exists inside all of us. Every single person has to fight the big Jihad, every day.
The small Jihad means fighting the evilness (is there even such a word? )in the outside world. This means, that the jihad we're generally talking about, is the small one.

Sorry if you all knew that before; just ignore me.

[Ruinel]

That's one question answered... how about the other 2?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
I'll start by writing something off topic (sorry Ruinel):
They talk about Jihad in the article, like in so many other articles. I just want to remind you that there are two different Jihads: the big Jihad (don't know if that's the correct translation) and the small Jihad.
The big one is about fighting the evil that exists inside all of us. Every single person has to fight the big Jihad, every day.
The small Jihad is the war against those who are the muslim's enemies. This means, that the jihad we're generally talking about, is the small one.

Sorry if you all knew that before; just ignore me.

I had heard something like this before. Thank you for posting it, though... it's very helpful.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
That's one question answered... how about the other 2?

A lot of it' perceived oppression that they see by us being friends with their governments - who aren't always the nicest. But then again - the ones that this bothers are the fanatics anyway. Take Saudi Arabia - Al Qaeda hates the Royal Family and hates the US for being in Saudi Arabia. But the thing is - one of the reasons they hate Saudi Arabia is because they are too "westernized" they have malls, material possessions and so forth. Saudi Arabia at the same time has extreme limits on the right of women. Women can't even drive in Saudi Arabia.

One thing I find interesting - is that fact that we go out of our way to fit into their culture - our female reporters wear headscarves and so forth - but we're considered the ones who don't respect them.

[Ruinel]

So, what you're saying is that al qaeda simply hates everyone and everything that isn't (a) fundamental muslim? That they focus on "The West" (which includes Europe an America) because our cultures distinctly represent the opposite to their religious beliefs. Is this correct?


Also, does anyone have anything to add to this?

[BeardofPants]

Well, the 'hatred' of the west can't be that complete, because weren't they just offering Europe a 'truce' recently?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, what you're saying is that al qaeda simply hates everyone and everything that isn't (a) fundamental muslim? That they focus on "The West" (which includes Europe an America) because our cultures distinctly represent the opposite to their religious beliefs. Is this correct?

I think this is correct. An extreme fundamental muslim has as enemy everything which threatens the traditional, religious lifestyle and society, which the Western world in modern times strongly does. Muslim countries are influenced by the USA and Europe through TV and radio, internet, more people are travelling, and so on. I think al qaeda sees this as THE danger. Therefore are they making war on us, using terrorism as their weapon. I also think USA is a convenient country to point a finger on, in order to recruit members to their organization.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, the 'hatred' of the west can't be that complete, because weren't they just offering Europe a truce recently?

They're offering a truce because as they stated they want to divide the US from it's allies first. Hitler also offered the Soviet Union a treaty because he didn't want any trouble from them while he invaded Poland. After that was successful he then went right into Russia and attacked them.

Anyone that thinks that that truce was valid has to have their head in the sand.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think this is correct. An extreme fundamental muslim has as enemy everything which threatens the traditional, religious lifestyle and society, which the Western world in modern times strongly does. Muslim countries are influenced by the USA and Europe through TV and radio, internet, more people are travelling, and so on. I think al qaeda sees this as THE danger. Therefore are they making war on us, using terrorism as their weapon. I also think USA is a convenient country to point a finger on, in order to recruit members to their organization.

That is true - also I think it's because we represent the West as being the most powerful country that makes up the "West". If Britain was the most powerful - they would then be the most hated and they would be having their flag burned and stomped on. If it was France - then it would be them. But currently it falls on US shoulders to be hated.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think this is correct. An extreme fundamental muslim has as enemy everything which threatens the traditional, religious lifestyle and society, which the Western world in modern times strongly does. Muslim countries are influenced by the USA and Europe through TV and radio, internet, more people are travelling, and so on. I think al qaeda sees this as THE danger. Therefore are they making war on us, using terrorism as their weapon. I also think USA is a convenient country to point a finger on, in order to recruit members to their organization.

I can certainly agree with that.

JD, I meant to put "truce" in quotations like I did with 'hatred'. I'll go back and edit.

[GrayMouser]

Gee, what's the fun of a thread like this when everyone's making such intelligent and reasonable points?

Just like to add: these guys are looking back at the Golden Age of Islam, when the West (Europe) was a stagnant backwater and wondering how the situation has reversed itself.
Since thay are the possessors of the True Faith, it obviously must be someone else's fault.

It never seems to occur to them that, in their days of glory, Damascus and Baghdad, Cairo and Cordoba, were the most open, cosmopolitan, tolerant and enlightened societies around- and that they are the equivalent of the backhill and deep desert tribesman who came screaming down to purify the Faithful by burning the libraries and destroying the gardens and aqueducts.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
JD, I meant to put "truce" in quotations like I did with 'hatred'. I'll go back and edit.

Okay - that makes sense then. I thought you were serious that they wanted a real truce.

Their hatred is like Hitler blaming everything on the Jews and their truce they offered to Europe is like Hitler's treaty with the Soviet Union.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Gee, what's the fun of a thread like this when everyone's making such intelligent and reasonable points?

Just like to add: these guys are looking back at the Golden Age of Islam, when the West (Europe) was a stagnant backwater and wondering how the situation has reversed itself.
Since thay are the possessors of the True Faith, it obviously must be someone else's fault.

It never seems to occur to them that, in their days of glory, Damascus and Baghdad, Cairo and Cordoba, were the most open, cosmopolitan, tolerant and enlightened societies around- and that they are the equivalent of the backhill and deep desert tribesman who came screaming down to purify the Faithful by burning the libraries and destroying the gardens and aqueducts.

That is very true. And if they bothered to look - we do honor their past. You know how many shows I see on the History Channel, Discovery Channel and History International talking about the greatness of the ancient Middle East? The thing is - what have they complished lately really? They are backwater desert tribesmen who treat their women like crap and restrict individual freedom.

[Fat middle]

This is sort of off-topic, but I'm posting it here to avoid starting a new thread of similar topic.

Perhaps some of you have already read about it... I think you all know that after the March 11th attacks of Madrid, the Spanish Police beban to make detentions. They've catch 18 people (all them muslims, mainly from Morocco). The last of them (3 or 4) were not exactly caught: they were surrounded by the GEOs (our SWAT forces) but they exploded a bomb killing themselves and also one of the GEOs

But the more sadly thing is that two weeks after (I think it was last Sunday) some people assalted the tomb of the dead GEO and also burned his dead body

Why all this hate? Arty's reasons about our culture influence in their countries seems not enough for me...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
This is sort of off-topic, but I'm posting it here to avoid starting a new thread of similar topic.

Perhaps some of you have already read about it... I think you all know that after the March 11th attacks of Madrid, the Spanish Police beban to make detentions. They've catch 18 people (all them muslims, mainly from Morocco). The last of them (3 or 4) were not exactly caught: they were surrounded by the GEOs (our SWAT forces) but they exploded a bomb killing themselves and also one of the GEOs

But the more sadly thing is that two weeks after (I think it was last Sunday) some people assalted the tomb of the dead GEO and also burned his dead body

I had heard about the first part. That was all over our news - not mention the French News too. I did not however hear about the last part - even on the French News. That is terrible and sick.

Why all this hate? Arty's reasons about our culture influence in their countries seems not enough for me...

Why hate Spain though? You really were not bombed because of Iraq and I hope you guys don't think you are safe now that you are pulling out.

I think a lot has to do with the way we live - more than anything else. At least for the fanatics. Also they use and twist things that happen in the world to say "see they are murdering Muslims" - but yet ignore the number of times we have come to muslim's aid. Al Qaeda is like a cult almost - a very violent brainwashing cult and a most of the madrasas are like that too.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Why all this hate? Arty's reasons about our culture influence in their countries seems not enough for me...

We're talking about fanatism here. The reason doesn't seem enough for us, but then we would never use the means they are using to reach our goals, whatsoever. These people just don't live by the same values as we do.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
We're talking about fanatism here. The reason doesn't seem enough for us, but then we would never use the means they are using to reach our goals, whatsoever. These people just don't live by the same values as we do.

Yeah - look at how they bombed that school van killing all those children. They have no problem killing innocent people at all - not even children.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I think a lot has to do with the way we live - more than anything else. At least for the fanatics. Also they use and twist things that happen in the world to say "see they are murdering Muslims" - but yet ignore the number of times we have come to muslim's aid. Al Qaeda is like a cult almost - a very violent brainwashing cult and a most of the madrasas are like that too.

I think that's where the problem lies: the fanatics don't necessarily see it as 'saving', they rather see it as attempts on bringing our western life-style to their countries - which of course they see as a threat to Islam (just look at what it has done to Christianity).

Spain may have been singled out because it was an easy target and their leader supported the invasion of Iraq. Why the meaningless violence? I've no idea.....