Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Radagast]

I'm sure you've all seen the news. Thoughts?

[Khamûl]

Just a friendly reminder from the thread at the top of the page:

Starting now, we will place a tighter watch on political discussions. Political threads that country bash flame/bait will be closed and warnings issued to the appropiate parties via private message. Any further violation after being warned will result in an immediate and possibly permanent ban from the board.

Keep it civil, people.

[Twista]

Little link for those to read if they havent....

BBC News Report on Issue

Sounds terrible...

[Insidious Rex]

and wide spread outrage is well diserved. if for nothing more then the hypocrisy of ridiculing middle eastern people about their inhumane tactics with captured forces and then turning around and having this happen. But in my opinion this IS an anomaly and not the norm. Although I realize many countries will be dubious about that statement and rightfully so.

Im actually more worried about the idea of american citizens (Hamdi and Padilla) being arrested and detained without legal representation for as long as we want to hold them and them not being able to do anything about it. Thats absurd and goes against everything the constitution stands for. They have a right to representation and to stand trial.

[Radagast]

Khamûl, how is this country bashing? The atrocities were done by Americans. Fact. It's a statement, its not slanted or biased, its the truth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

And indeed it is terrible. But, keep in mind that these military personel's behavior does not reflect the behavior of the entire US military. This is hardly usual practice and is not something that is limited to just the US. There are idiots in every bunch.

I find it interesting how throughout the world media, the US is looked at as barbaric, controling, animals, that achieve their purpose strictly through intimidation and torture.

Gee, it would be nice if we heard criticism about all the barbaric things that Saddam did to his people before the US went in to oust him and try to bring a free democracy to Iraq.

There are a lot of terrible people in this world. It is not limited to the US, the US military, or any one country. I think it's safe to say that these few that commited this act will be appropriately punished. It's sad to me to see such a bad picture painted of the US because of a few bad apples, especially when our intent is to make the world a safer and happier place.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Radagast
Khamûl, how is this country bashing? The atrocities were done by Americans. Fact. It's a statement, its not slanted or biased, its the truth.

I don't believe that is what he's saying. He is reminding members that it could become a loaded thread and to keep the rules in mind and be civil while discussing this topic.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Radagast
Khamûl, how is this country bashing? The atrocities were done by Americans. Fact. It's a statement, its not slanted or biased, its the truth.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I don't believe that is what he's saying. He is reminding members that it could become a loaded thread and to keep the rules in mind and be civil while discussing this topic.

Exactly. This could very easily become another "stupid Americans" thread and I was just reminding everyone before it even got started to try to keep it from going that direction. If there would have been some bashing or flaming in the first post, I would have immediately closed it. As it is, I was refreshing everyone's memory.

This has the potential to be a good discussion, if everyone can remain calm and not needlessly rant and rave.

[Insidious Rex]

so what yer saying is we are just waiting for jersey and fenir to notice this thread before it gets closed then.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Gee, it would be nice if we heard criticism about all the barbaric things that Saddam did to his people before the US went in to oust him and try to bring a free democracy to Iraq.

what do you mean? I heard about it for years and years. All the time. Did you really never hear about what a bad guy he was? What news were you reading/listening to? Im pretty sure it was a widely known fact.

The sad thing is abuse of prisoners is probably the rule and not the exception in most countries. Its easy for humans to slide that way when they are given that kind of power. And its true everywhere. Especially when obtaining information is necessary. Israel does this as well as middle eastern countries. Again, I think what we saw in Iraq was NOT the norm. But it DOES happen. I just disagree that we only hear about american attrocities.

[brownjenkins]

i think it's shameful... and i would also be very reluctant to take the 'few bad apples' argument... while it is true, the best approach for any leader, military or otherwise, is to take 100% responsibility for the actions of his or her subordinates

it's when they resort to justifications or excuses that the world sees us as hypocrits... the intelligent of the world know the realities of war and life... and the ones who don't will keep their opinions no matter what we do... the real question is, do we face up to them and take responsibility, or try to hide/explain away them?

[Sister Golden Hair]

what do you mean? I heard about it for years and years. All the time. Did you really never hear about what a bad guy he was? What news were you reading/listening to? Im pretty sure it was a widely known fact.

I listen to the same news you do, and that's not my point. I am referring to now, and it was an example. We could discuss the horrific mutilations of the 4 American contractors. It was an example of current focus in one area, instead of looking at the bigger picture and realizing that it isn't just any one group that does such horrific things.


I think it is horrible when any such horrific crime like this occurs, nomatter who is responsible, and it should be severly punished.

[BeardofPants]

What I don't understand is that one of the guys detained claimed that he didn't have adequate training, and yet, back in the US, he is a Prison Officer.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
What I don't understand is that one of the guys detained claimed that he didn't have adequate training, and yet, back in the US, he is a Prison Officer.

Yeah, I heard something about that too. He also said that he tried to get intructions through his chain of command, but got no results. That doesn't excuse what happened though. Any civilized person with half a brain knows that such treatment is wrong and criminal.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, I heard something about that too. He also said that he tried to get intructions through his chain of command, but got no results. That doesn't excuse what happened though. Any civilized person with half a brain knows that such treatment is wrong and criminal.

I agree. It's an outrage. The thing that IS NOT being reported in the world media though is that the people were TURNED in by fellow officers and that they are being being court maritial and punished under military law. I watched it on French News last night and they used the episode basicallly to American Bash. 6 people out of 150,000 personnel in Iraq and the US gets looked down on for this - as if it's normal? They were turned in by their FELLOW officers - but no one is talking about them. Why not ? Why not talk about the good soldiers too who put the end to this brutality? Why not talk about the fact that the US government and military is taking very strong action against them?

People are outraged by it here - but going by the French News and other world news sources - it seems to be being used as just pure American bashing.

I'm not really happy with CBS publishing those photos - it's all over arab news - it feeds into the hate of America over there and puts our troops in danger. It wasn't like nothing was being done against the soldiers responsible - it's not like it wasn't being discussed and reported on for a month. There is such thing as RESPONSIBLE reporting and I don't think this is an example of that. When the results of reporting can put people's lives in danger - some other action has to be taken.

During the Irananian Hostage situation there was a reporter that knew about the secret plan to rescue the hostages - he sat on it - because he knew and was convinced that if they reported it - it would get people killed. This is no different. It feeds into Bin Ladin's cause. Right now I feel those soldiers should be executed for treason against the United States or at the very least get life imprisonment. I personally don't care at all whether they were taught how to handle prisoners, anyone with halfg a brain knows that you don't do the things they did.

I want everyone to think about Beor - and ask yourself if you think that he is like that. Does this reflect on him? Because it seems the way this is being reported around the world that they want this to be an "all the US army is like this" thing.

One other thing - we do not thing that "the US army is souless" - like the french news claimed we did last night. We think that these particular soldiers were barbarians - but is NOT representive of the US army as a whole. There are bad people in every industry and the army is no different.

[Hemel]

UK forces too, it would seem.

Shan't post the link because it has a picture in it and I'm not sure whether it would breach the PG rating for here. But a victim was allegedly beaten, urinated on, and threatened with execution over eight hours, and then dumped from a moving vehicle.

The reason why the photos were made public, according to the article I read, was because other force members, ie peers, were trying to show why there was such strong resistance to the coalition forces. It makes me wonder why they decided to publish, knowing it would bring a backlash. Was it because they could achieve no satisfaction and cessation through their own commands? So were the abusers behaving clandestinely? Or did people in higher positions know but not stop it?

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Bah, I love threads that show that America isn't all great and god's gift to the world. Unfortunately, many people are elitists. My evil mother is an egotistical freak and she seems to be under the impression that America is oh so humane and loved around the world and the only reason anyone would dislike us is because they envy us

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Bah, I love threads that show that America isn't all great and god's gift to the world. Unfortunately, many people are elitists. My evil mother is an egotistical freak and she seems to be under the impression that America is oh so humane and loved around the world and the only reason anyone would dislike us is because they envy us

So - you like threads that show the US as being a crappy countyr huh? Interesting. Tioo bad it was only 6 people that we know of - but it is being presented as the "whole army". It must really disturb you to hear about the MAJORITY of good things we do. These soldiers are NOT America - America did NOT do this - the soldiers did and are paying for it. You know what I hate - people who only want to view the US as this evil and manipulative place. But then again you seem blinded by your hatred. And I'm sure the elitist part was referring to me - but I never said the US was perfect - but I'm not going to condemn America for something that individual soldiers chose to do - and a situtation America is taking care of.

Hemel - as for the photos being published - they were sent up through the chain of command I believe. This is not an old story and the people had LONG been removed and have been under investigation for their cirmes. The quesion I have is why when things ARE being done - why were the pictures published. It wasn't like there was NO action from the US government and they were just ignoring it.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

No I was not intentionally calling you an elitist because I did not read any post, just contributed a random ADD kid thought. Because I am a moron. Hmmm... I like living in America. We're all rich and stuff. We have a government that lets us be rich. But I dislike the majority of Americans because they love their country. That's such a silly thing, loving your county. Hmmm. I want join some little aboriginee (sp?) tribe somewhere where they have no currency, no school, and you just run around in loin cloths and hunt stuff. Ahhh... so fun. Of course you only live to be about 30 but in the simple life you can't really be wrong, as long as you're not really right either. I don't know. I don't take national pride or politics very seriously, I just want to be left alone. Maybe I'll start my own country, and I will be the only person in it. FWAAH!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Sminty, do you feel that there is something wrong with loving one's country? If so, why?

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I don't think there's anything wrong with liking your country, as long as you don't hate people for their leaders hurting someone in your country (i.e. all these people hating muslims because some extremists blew up some people they didn't even know from the WTC), I mean it's terrible that people died from that and all but they're humans, and so are Muslims. I don't see why people get all uppety against the whole nation for a few of them killing some Americans I never knew just because they're Americans... I don't like people to die whether they're American or Slovegnian (sp?) or Russian or Muslim...

I believe that it's mostly our environments that makes some people the way they are. I mean anybody could be any way in certain situations and lifestyles and DNA. I don't think people should be credited, countries shouldn't be credited, for the way they are. Sure we could try to help other countries with the best judgment we can, but saying Americans are better than other people because they're fighting for America seems silly to me. We're all just humans that ended up different ways for different reasons.

I don't think it's right to think your country is better than others, and that your country is more deserving and stuff, just because our way of life is better/we have better leaders. I don't believe anyone should have the kind of power America supposedly has.