Endgame in Iraq

[Valandil]

Not to invite negative comments about America's foreign policy in general, but hopefully just to spark some conversation and insights.

In general, I've been very supportive of our adminstration's war on terror. I've felt good about our actions in Iraq... even if it ends up that the country had no advanced WMD program, it's not like the Bush admin set out to fool everyone, IMO... EVERYONE thought Iraq had them. And I feel real good about us removing the Hussein family from power.

However, I'm getting more unsettled about how things are currently going there. It appears to have been a major mistake to have shut down the one newspaper. It sure clouds our intentions... I would think we'd be all in favor of a free press. And if they thought whatever the paper published was inciting trouble, look how much trouble they got after they shut it down.

I really think the Bush administration should replace the general who ordered the paper's shut down and allow the paper to publish again. There'll probably still be a lot of mess to clean up... but at least it gets us back on the right footing.

What do the rest of you think the US should do now... given how things stand, in order to best extricate ourselves from Iraq, and still be able to leave a relatively peaceful, stable country behind us?

[Janny]

Gee don't pose easy questions! I'm not even going to try and answer that last one.

I didn't know about the closing of the newspaper, but it seem like a huge mistake. If nothing else, it's irony verging on the hippocritical.

I'm interested by the suggestion that everyone thought Iraq had WMDs, right from the outset, UN failure to find these was seen in the UK as proof of their non-existance. Even prior to the war, I was advocating it as the morally correct thing to do even though the reason was false. Nobody here (so far as I could see) believed there were WMDs, especially with the whole Allistar Cambell / dodgy dossier debacle. I'm not sure many people even believed Mr Blair believed there were WMDs.

There remains a strong anti war feeling, but I find this increasingly odd, especially now troops have been deployed and are really almost a peace keeping force (bad term I know). The opposition to war remains despite the obvious good intentions and work of the troops there.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Janny
I'm interested by the suggestion that everyone thought Iraq had WMDs, right from the outset, UN failure to find these was seen in the UK as proof of their non-existance. Even prior to the war, I was advocating it as the morally correct thing to do even though the reason was false. Nobody here (so far as I could see) believed there were WMDs, especially with the whole Allistar Cambell / dodgy dossier debacle. I'm not sure many people even believed Mr Blair believed there were WMDs.

Everyone's intelligence said that there was WMD in Iraq. Europe's said it, the UN's said it and America's intelligence said that Iraq had WMD. The only question was where was it. During the investigation, Iraq was not fully cooperating, there were over 17 resolutions which Iraq pissed on. The end of the Gulf War technically never ended - because of the requirements in the agreement. Iraq never upheld it's end of the bargain - we didn't need to go to the UN at all.

Valandil - I agree, closing down the newspaper was a mistake. It was inciting violence at the same time and that is why we closed it down. I don't agree with the decision though, because Al Jazeera and so forth incite violence too in the middle east and we can't close them down. We should have tried to work around the newspaper - because all it did was bring back the feelings of Hussein and became something the terrorists could use against us to turn Iraqi opinion against us.

Like you - I still support the war. As you said - this is the endgame. This is the last hope for the terrorists who don't want Iraq to be a free, democratic country. We will succeed - no matter how much it takes.

[Beor]

First off, considering the ammount of weapons caches here, I wouldnt doubt it if we do end up finding some sort of WMD, even if it is inactive. I am not saying we have, but that dude hid stuff all over the place, and the desert is very large.

Secondly, I really dont know too much about this newspaper. I honestly didnt know anything about it, and I am sure that it has something pivitol to do with what is going on too. I am so uninformed sometimes.

I still support the war too, and it looks like I will now be doing that first hand for quite some time, but to tell the truth, I dont see an endstate emerging for a long time, forgive me, but I just cant forsee it. The people lack the responsibility to help themselves. We pump millions of dollars into their economy in our sector alone, and we hire contractors to fix stuff, but it doesnt seem like they do anything with it. If we gave them a million dollars and told them to fix up their lives, they would end up the same as they were when they started, if they were lucky. They might have been killed for the money too. They seem to lack pride in their country, and the responsibility to get any. If they could find a unifyable sense of pride in themselves and their country, they would be doing a lot better by now than they are. That is my opinion from where I stand, thats all.

[Lizra]

If pride is what they need, then media is a good place to start. People need to be told the positive things that are possible, before they can begin to imagine them, and see themselves in that role. Sounds like they need some intense, uplifting spin....to get the ball rolling. I would start from that angle then, so closing the press (That could pump positive spin into them) isn't good. What's that saying..."All you have to fear is fear itself" (something like that ) the people of Iraq have had a steady diet of fear for so long. Start with the media!! Geez, isn't that the West's most prevailing export anyway?

[Valandil]

Yeah Beor, I didn't know this at first, but after this recent uprising had been going on for a few days, I read that it started after we closed down a newspaper of Al Sadr... this guy who has now become a focal point of anti-US sentiment.

Lizra, I doubt his paper was very sympathetic to us, or what we were doing, or was showing much of the positive... it was likely spouting a lot of hatred and negative garbage. But still, it makes one kind of statement if we tolerate it and allow it to say the garbage it wants to say... and makes a whole different kind of statement when we shut it down.

[Lizra]

I see. Well, are there pro rebuilding, positive papers and telvision stations, run by Iraqus that support the "new Iraq"? Propaganda can be a two way street.

[Tessar]

I really just think we need to get out of Iraq and let them brow-beat themselves into the ground all they like.

As I said they'll either blow themselves up,

or just screw up so much they'll beg us to come back, in which case there won't be so much trouble.

But of course that's just from what I've read in the papers, and Beor being over there and saying he's all for it is certainly giving me pause. *shrug*

[Beruthiel's cat]

I agree with Lizra's observations about the media. As Janny said, it's ironic that a newspaper would be closed down when some of the basic tennets of US democracy have always been fredom of the press and freedom of expression.

I support the troops for many reasons, mainly because they have a job to do. I'm sad that many will have to stay longer than they had originally anticipated and even sadder that it looks like even more troops will have to be sent over.

It really does look like we're in it for the long term. I don't think that the US will lose face (or credibility) by staying past the July deadline if that is necessary to assure more political stability. You can't leave that work undone.

And as far as the US losing credidbility -- we've lost it with the rest of the world anyway by the way things have been handled in Iraq from the beginning. And unfortunately, inidividuals are often judged by the actions of their leaders.

Val, old buddy, I'm mostly with you on this one!

(Meanwhile, I await my disection by JD...)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
If pride is what they need, then media is a good place to start. People need to be told the positive things that are possible, before they can begin to imagine them, and see themselves in that role. Sounds like they need some intense, uplifting spin....to get the ball rolling. I would start from that angle then, so closing the press (That could pump positive spin into them) isn't good. What's that saying..."All you have to fear is fear itself" (something like that ) the people of Iraq have had a steady diet of fear for so long. Start with the media!! Geez, isn't that the West's most prevailing export anyway?

As Valandil said - the newspaper wasn't supportive of us. It was calling on Iraqis to attack Americans and so forth.

As for putting a positive spin in the media and telling them what we do - we have that. The US has a 24 hour news network in iraq that has discussion groups and is similar to CNN. But the people don't watch that - they watch Al-Jazeera which spreads hate against America. They would rather believe that Israel is being brought in to rule Iraq and that America is going to steal the oil instead of knowing that we are rebuilding schools, hospitals and so forth.

[Beor]

Hey, B, here is a scalpel for when he comes by, but this one is clean

Well, thats it, just a little spam, no really good point or idea here

[Lizra]

Well, I guess I would keep plugging away with the positive spin, Trying to do it as effectively as possible. I keep thinking of the way you have to deal with teenagers sometimes. They act like they aren't listening, but really they are. You have to keep talking and keep the door open. If it still seems we are throwing good money after bad (or whatever that saying is ) in a year or two, I would pull out and chalk it up to experience. I do believe that some good will have to come of our efforts, not a glowing "VICTORY" but minds might be subtly changed none-the-less.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Beruthiel's cat

(Meanwhile, I await my disection by JD...)

No need to wait any longer.

IIt really does look like we're in it for the long term. I don't think that the US will lose face (or credibility) by staying past the July deadline if that is necessary to assure more political stability. You can't leave that work undone.

We weren't leaving after June 30th. We were merely turing over the everyday operations of the country to the iraqis. Our military was remaining - but more as a securiy role to back up the iraqi military and police - that part seems to have possibly changed.

And as far as the US losing credidbility -- we've lost it with the rest of the world anyway by the way things have been handled in Iraq from the beginning. And unfortunately, inidividuals are often judged by the actions of their leaders.

The world never really respected the US. During the cold war under Reagan Europe also hated the US - because he took on the Soviet Union. His term "Evil Empire" was just as terrible to the world as "Axis of Evil". Europe felt that reagan was going to cause World War III by antagonizing the soviet Union and placing missiles in Germany.

The rest of the world only respects the US when we do what they want - not just discuss things with them. Bush did discuss things - he just decided that if they didn't want to come along, we were doing it without them. Europe does not have veto power in our government, only Americans do.

[Valandil]

While I don't like that we closed the newspaper, I see two important things with our continued commitment to stay there (just so we can get a better feel for handling ourselves):

1. We want to be able to leave Iraq in a better situation than when we got there... preferably MUCH better. Removal of the Husseins was a good start. However, if it winds up with rulership similar to how El Talaban in Afghanistan was before we went over THERE, that could be even worse (note - I don't think we'd intentionally leave the government in the hands of people like that - but I'm starting to worry about the perceived legitimacy of whatever government we DO leave behind... such that the people will not want to just cast it off and go Shiite).

2. We cannot afford to let the terrorists begin to think, once again, that we will 'cut and run' when the going gets tough. That will invite much more trouble for us in the future than it dispels for today - in ALL troublespots of the world.

[Beruthiel's cat]

Europe does not have veto power in our government, only Americans do.

But I don't recall being asked, JD... (just an observation...)

I already have a bad knee, JD, but you'd better watch yours or you'll develop arthritis! (that's a joke, son....)

BTW, I hope you took the scalpel Beor offered before you opened...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Beruthiel's cat
But I don't recall being asked, JD... (just an observation...)

Being asked what? Congress approved the presidents position. He went to congress about Iraq. Also - you have veto power at the polls. You can state your opinion there - where all americans have the power to state their opinions. Do you or any american have a direct say in taxes and so forth? That is why we have representatives in Congress and a President - to represent our interests and to lead -- even if they have to make the tough decisions.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As Valandil said - the newspaper wasn't supportive of us. It was calling on Iraqis to attack Americans and so forth.

As for putting a positive spin in the media and telling them what we do - we have that. The US has a 24 hour news network in iraq that has discussion groups and is similar to CNN. But the people don't watch that - they watch Al-Jazeera which spreads hate against America. They would rather believe that Israel is being brought in to rule Iraq and that America is going to steal the oil instead of knowing that we are rebuilding schools, hospitals and so forth.

Gee, I wonder why? When Israel killed Yassin, the American channel didn't even cover it. The Arab channels broadcast coverage from hospitals in Fallujah, while the American network shows programs about the Iraqi Oympic teams.

Exactly- when American convoys are being targetted and bridges being blown up, the American stations report on schools being painted- if you were an Iraqi, which would you watch, considering your survival may depend on knowing what's going on?

[Lalaith_Elf]

I think it's a good thing, what we're trying to do for Iraq. I mean I was set against the war before it started, and I did take part in some 'anti-war' demonstrations. But when the war started, I wasn't one of these people who continued with the demonstrations. I was still against it of course, but I thought that it was better to actually support the troops that had gone out there. Of course I still want them all home, and especially those I know out there. Hopefully all the troops will finish their good work and come home safely, leaving behind them a much safer Iraq.

And I'd have to agree with Val about the newspaper. Though I'm a bit vauge on that because I didn't follow that issue.(was it on the news?)

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Also - you have veto power at the polls. You can state your opinion there - where all americans have the power to state their opinions

November's coming, JD. See ya at the polls...! (I expect we'll cancel each other's votes, though...)

[GrayMouser]

And now, just when you think it couldn't get more screwed up, Bremer & Co. have invited the Iranians in to get their butts out of a jam.

Is there anything they could have done to mess up the situation in Iraq in the long-term more than this?

Long-term? Long-term? The only long-term is to Bush's election in November- other than that, if it involves screwing up the whole area by bringing in the 'Axis-of-Evil', who cares?