Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Lizra]

I see. One side claiming this is a "holy war" is bad enough. Let's not make it both. I'd like to keep the "Him" that I do not believe in out of decision making.

[Hemel]

I still think the new quote you gave, bj, isn't necessarily helpful in its implications. I think it still, but rather carefully, links the idea of the US as doing God's bidding .... being as tools for God. And what's the bit about 'continue to bless the US?'. So the US considers itself already God-blessed for some reason? And why just the US? What about the rest of us, who also have citizens who believe or might believe in God, or be swayed by God ideas?


Now, here's a place where I get very confused, and I would like someone to explain to me. There's a much vaunted separation of church and state in the US ... and yet here, surely, there is a statesperson using the views of a particular church to advance state causes. Can someone please make sense of this for me, and if I've got it wrong, point out where?

(or am I now getting too much off topic? )



btw, Tony Blair also is somewhat given to using God in his words. I happen, irrespective of what I believe or don't believe, to find this rather a turn off ... almost as though TB (there's a pair of initials! ) doesn't quite believe his own secular case is strong enough. I find it a little odd too that he should say such things when at the same time we are being persuaded that the identity of 'British' is multi-cultural.

[Rían]

I haven't read all this thread, but compared to the atrocities committed on Iraqis by Hussain and his sick sons, the few soldiers out of thousands that are jerks are nothing. Not that it at ALL excuses what the soldiers did - they should be held resonsible, and the leaders need to work to put measures in place to prevent things like that - but sheesh! let's get some perspective on this. I see why Earniel merged the threads, but let's not overlook the millions of Iraqis killed and tortured by the former leaders of Iraq, vs. the few Iraqis mistreated by foreign soldiers that are putting their own lives at risk by just being there.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
My precious Brit-bashing thread! *snif*

Just kidding!

Mwahahah! Thwarting Ruinel's plotting, one thread at a time.


Seriously now, personally I'd be careful to use the atrocities committed by other people as a way of saying this situation isn't that bad. While those atrocities are terrible and unjustifiable in any way they may not become an excuse for smaller scale incidents.

If we, the western nations, claim to be civilised then we should act that way, on our turf and on foreign soil. I will not deny there is a lot of pressure on front line soldiers but on the other hand they're often a sort of ambassador of their nation to the civilians they meet face to face there. Behaviour like this can damage the entire idea of bringing order and peace.

But let's face it, it isn't a isolated incident. I'm not saying it happens continuously, far from it. But this isn't first time soldiers, who supposedly should bring peace and order to an occupied nation, abuse local people. There have been other incidents brought to the media before and then not by british and american soldiers.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Lizra
He said all that "god" stuff! Oh brother! No way I can vote for someone who says silly stuff like that. (IMO) That sounds crazy. I sure hope Kerry doesn't spout off a bunch of "god" babble. Then I'll be stuck not voting! Sorry to go off topic...

no... don't drop your vote! If Kerry doesn't represent you, vote for Nader, even if you have to write him in.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I wanted to post to say that I am an American, and I am deeply sorry for the acts of some of our soldiers. I earnestly believe that we went into that country with good intentions, intentions of stopping those same kinds of things from happening in multitudes of incidents on a regular basis. It is shaming to see that some of us fell to the same level, and that our Intelligence "did not stop it"/"did not know about it".

Extremely well said lief. I salute your honesty and your humility in this statement. I only wish all americans would have the humility and frankly the guts to admit the same thing.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Mwahahah! Thwarting Ruinel's plotting, one thread at a time.


Seriously now, personally I'd be careful to use the atrocities committed by other people as a way of saying this situation isn't that bad. While those atrocities are terrible and unjustifiable in any way they may not become an excuse for smaller scale incidents.

If we, the western nations, claim to be civilised then we should act that way, on our turf and on foreign soil. I will not deny there is a lot of pressure on front line soldiers but on the other hand they're often a sort of ambassador of their nation to the civilians they meet face to face there. Behaviour like this can damage the entire idea of bringing order and peace.

But let's face it, it isn't a isolated incident. I'm not saying it happens continuously, far from it. But this isn't first time soldiers, who supposedly should bring peace and order to an occupied nation, abuse local people. There have been other incidents brought to the media before and then not by british and american soldiers.

I completely agree with this. We (the coalition) can't send soldiers into Iraq and allow the same horrible acts that Hussain committed to be committed by us. We must be above that.

[Radagast The Brown]

I heard someone saying the photographs are faked.

*searching*

here:

Col. David Black, who led the regiment in the 1980s, told British Broadcasting Corp. television that equipment and a truck pictured in the photos had not been used by the regiment in Iraq. He said he did not believe the photos had been taken in the Middle Eastern country.

"The evidence we have seen so far looking at the photographs, there are too many inconsistencies," he said.

British military police are investigating the photos, which the Daily Mirror said had been supplied by two serving members of the regiment. On Monday it quoted one of the unidentified soldiers as saying he had seen "literally hundreds" of similar pictures.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I heard someone saying the photographs are faked.

*searching*

here:

It could be a snow job. Don't trust any government to tell you the honest, unspoiled truth.

The reports and the photos were supposed to have come from British soldiers that had just returned from Iraq. Why would they incriminate their own?

[Sister Golden Hair]

I thought I would post this, because it describes more of what our military people are like and how they differ from the idiots that commited those horrible crimes of torture.

The average age of the military man is 19 years. He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country. He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash his father's; but he has
never collected unemployment either.

He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away. He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and 155mm howizzitor. He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk.

He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark. He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must. He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a professional. He can march until he is told to stop
or stop until he is told to march.

He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity. He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts. If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.

He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like
they were his hands. He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job. He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and still find ironic humor in it all. He has seen more suffering and death then he should have in his short lifetime.

He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them. He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and is unashamed. He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking. In an odd twist, day in and day
out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.

Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom. Beardless or not, he is not a boy. He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for over 200 years.

He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and understanding. Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood. And now we even have woman over there in danger, doing their part in this tradition of going to War when our nation calls us to do so.

This is the American soldier.

[brownjenkins]

very touching

it makes you wonder if we should allow kids in so young... i don't know if i would have been mature enough at 18, and i was pretty mature for my age... maybe 21 or 24 would be more realistic... at least for combat situations

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I wouldn't mind having Bin Ladin being drawn and quartered in lower Manhattan and his head put on display at ground zero for all to see. Sort of what they used to do on London Bridge.

So if you think that'd be ok, then it's ok if Iraqis would like to have Bush's head on display too?
You're scary.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
So if you think that'd be ok, then it's ok if Iraqis would like to have Bush's head on display too?
You're scary.

I agree... if Bin Ladin was drawn and quartered and his head put on a post (Brit-style), then I'd be mortified and repulsed.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
So if you think that'd be ok, then it's ok if Iraqis would like to have Bush's head on display too?
You're scary.

I wouldn't mind... psyche. Thats a bit extreme but I want to see Bush out of Office...

[Coney II]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I thought I would post this, because it describes more of what our military people are like and how they differ from the idiots that commited those horrible crimes of torture.

The average age of the military man is 19 years. He is a short haired, tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half man, half boy. Not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough to die for his country. He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his own car than wash his father's; but he has
never collected unemployment either.

He's a recent High School graduate; he was probably an average student, pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy, and has a steady girlfriend that either broke up with him when he left, or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away. He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and 155mm howizzitor. He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now than when he was at home because he is working or fighting from before dawn to well after dusk.

He has trouble spelling, thus letter writing is a pain for him, but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds and reassemble it in less time in the dark. He can recite to you the nomenclature of a machine gun or grenade launcher and use either one effectively if he must. He digs foxholes and latrines and can apply first aid like a professional. He can march until he is told to stop
or stop until he is told to march.

He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation, but he is not without spirit or individual dignity. He is self-sufficient. He has two sets of fatigues: he washes one and wears the other. He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry. He sometimes forgets to brush his teeth, but never to clean his rifle. He can cook his own meals, mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts. If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food. He'll even split his ammunition with you in the midst of battle when you run low.

He has learned to use his hands like weapons and weapons like
they were his hands. He can save your life - or take it, because that is his job. He will often do twice the work of a civilian, draw half the pay and still find ironic humor in it all. He has seen more suffering and death then he should have in his short lifetime.

He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies, and helped to create them. He has wept in public and in private, for friends who have fallen in combat and is unashamed. He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body while at rigid attention, while tempering the burning desire to 'square-away' those around him who haven't bothered to stand, remove their hat, or even stop talking. In an odd twist, day in and day
out, far from home, he defends their right to be disrespectful.

Just as did his Father, Grandfather, and Great-grandfather, he is paying the price for our freedom. Beardless or not, he is not a boy. He is the American Fighting Man that has kept this country free for over 200 years.

He has asked nothing in return, except our friendship and understanding. Remember him, always, for he has earned our respect and admiration with his blood. And now we even have woman over there in danger, doing their part in this tradition of going to War when our nation calls us to do so.

This is the American soldier.

Go read Jarhead by Anthony Swofford......the biography of a young marine during the 1991 conflict, critically it's hailed as one of the most honest war biographies ever written. It's not a "pleasant" story, but neither is a soldiers life but it gives some rare insights into a young mans military life and career

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
I wouldn't mind... psyche. Thats a bit extreme but I want to see Bush out of Office...

Me too.

No more Bush! No more Bush! [/chant]

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney II
Go read Jarhead by Anthony Swofford......the biography of a young marine during the 1991 conflict, critically it's hailed as one of the most honest war biographies ever written. It's not a "pleasant" story, but neither is a soldiers life but it gives some rare insights into a young mans military life and career

You should perhaps put some exerpts up. I know I'll never have time (nor the desire) to read it fully... there are no Elves in it.

[BeardofPants]

Excerpt from 'Jarhead: A Marine's Chronicle of the Gulf War and Other Battles'
By Anthony Swofford


This is war, I think. I'm walking through what my father and his father walked through — the epic results of American bombing, American might. The filth is on my boots. I am one of a few thousand people who will walk this valley today. I am history making. Whether I live or die, the United States will win this war. I know that the United States will win any war it fights, against any country. If colonialism weren't out of style, I'm sure we'd take over the entire Middle East, not only safeguard the oil reserves, but take the oil reserves: We are here to announce that you no longer own your country, thank you for your cooperation, more details will follow.


Our rucks are heavy with equipment and ammunition but even heavier with the burdens of history, and each step we take, the burdens increase.


The sky is a dead gray from the oil fires billowing to the north. We hump and hump and look at one another with blank, amazed faces. Is this what we've done? What will I tell my mother?


Troy says to me, "I feel sorry for these poor bastards. They didn't have a chance."


We stop for a water break. A few feet behind me a bombed jeep sits on the road. A corpse is at the wheel, sitting erect, looking serious, seeming almost to squint at the devastation, the corpse's face not unlike our faces — what has happened? Bombs, bombs, big bombs and small bombs, all of them filled with explosives meant to kill you! On either side of the jeep, more corpses, two near me, one not, all belly to the desert, as if they were running from the bomb — as if running would've helped. The back sides of the corpses are charred and decaying, the bottom halves buried in the sand, the sand wind-smeared like cake icing against the bodies, and I wonder if the bottom halves of the men are still living, buried by the mirage, unaware that death lurks above. Maybe the men are screaming into the earth, living their half lives, hoping to be heard. What would they tell me? Run.


I assume the men were screaming before the A-10 or A-6 dropped its bombs. But maybe they were on their way to Kuwait City for supplies, and it was evening and the men neither saw nor heard the plane that dropped on them. Perhaps one of the men was telling a dirty joke or repeating a rumor he'd heard about the major's wife. But they must have been screaming. I hear them now.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
So if you think that'd be ok, then it's ok if Iraqis would like to have Bush's head on display too?
You're scary.

I'm sure with the way the middle east behaves - they would do it if they could. Al Qaeda wanted to crashing one of the plane into the White House - the one that crashed into the Pentagon. The one that crashed in Pennsylvania was felt to be headed for the Capitol Building.

I'm sorry if my comment regarding bin Ladin offends you - I persionally don't care. None of you had to live through it and a year of funerals. It was just on the news today that there is an average of 5% who have respriatory problems in New York - the people exposed to the Twin Tower disaster (survivors and rescuers) there is a 50% - 60% respriatory problem in a sample of 10,000 people. Also - they have no idea what the situation will be in 20 years from the exposure of other chemicals and asbestos. I live with it EVERYDAY.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well why not start one then. then no one could give you crap for condeming others when it would be the subject of the thread. although I dont know how much discussion there would be in a thread like that. is there really a lot of people here who would argue with you about it not being ok to burn americans and drag them around and hang their bodies?

Wow there is no problem with discussing some other subject and dragging out the "evils of America" in it. But god forbid there is a thread about America and someone (namely me) does the samething to some other group. I guess it's only the US which can get freely bashed in all threads - whether it deals with America or not.