Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Mesada]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'd like to say, I condemn the torturing of prisoners, by the US or the UK, or any other country, whether it's in Iraq or Bosnia or anywhere else.

I'd like to add that the war in Iraq should have been headed by the UN!!! Not the US!!! (Personally, I was totally against this war. If the world did not act together, as one body, then it shouldn't happen. period!)

That the UN is now finally becoming active in this mess, is a good thing. But it's a little late, IMO.

The UN is as corrupt as any single government, the fact that they are investigating themselves gives one pause. The US doesn't need permission to do anything from anybody. NOT because the US is powerful but because the US is a free nation.

The UN is a passive body. Kinda like the mother who always says "You wait till your father gets home" but never says a word. They didn't take action and I doubt they will be doing too much pro-active stuff now.

Did anyone see the reports on the shooting on Saturday at Yanbu (spelling?). 2 Americans, 2 Britons and 1 Australian were killed. One confirmed person was being dragged through the streets by a car.

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Spock
Well for them it was degrading just like drading American corpses through the streets is degrading for us. Now their doing it in Saudi Arabia. It seems to be the new fad.
..I guess we should just be "kinder and gentler"?

I did say that I do not understand how anyone can do this kind of things. Of course that includes the things that Iraqis do to Americans or anyone else.

Your last sentence here gicves me a strong feeling that you think that what the soliders did to the Iraqis was ok. I truly hope I'm wrong; but it seems like you want to do the same things to the terrorists as they do to you. Wouldn't that make you a terrorist too?

[Spock]

The French are better at torture than the Americans. Just dig into their African escapades.

Everyone is better than we are; so I endorse the frequent flyer program for terrorists-to torture permissable lands.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
you totally missed the entire point of my post didnt you. honestly you need to get away from the "well they started it!!!" approach to justifying american wrongs. it doesnt matter what others have done.

And you have to stop reading my posts only as you want to read into them. NO WHERE DID I excuse their actions. NO where did I justify them.

whats at issue here is that these things SHOULDNT have been done. period. no need to try to turn the tables.

And if you bothered readfing my posts - you would see that I said they should NEVER have been done and that these soldiers should get the worst possible junishment imaginable.

no need to try to explain it away. no need to say we should be condeming others instead. we simply need to say hey we messed up (yes "we" even though it was a hand full of renegades that certainly DIDNT reflect the thinking of all americans as Ive stated several times now). And we need to deal with the FACT that yes it WILL hurt our ability to deal with the situation in Iraq both with Iraqis and with our own allies. Truth be told, Americans DO see themselves as more civilized then middle easterners. Theres just no getting around that. So when we do something like this saying "yeah well OTHERS did too!" is having a double standard.

Again if yuou bothered reading my posts - you would see that I was not condoning their actions. I was merely pointing out that the Middle East does FAR WORSE. That is not condoning. Condoning would be saying that nothign should be done to the soldiers because the Middle East does that type behavior. Please tell me where I said that they should be let off?

All I said was that there should have been a collective slapping of the forehead when we found out about what happened. Not a collective shrugging of the shoulders or a collective pointing of the finger at others.

I don't see where there was a pointing of the fingers or the shrugging of shoulders. Hell I have said here several times that I think they should be tried for treason.

If we hold ourselves up to a higher standard then we have to accept what it means when we fail to keep that high standard on occasion. Its ok to say WE #&$@ed UP once in a while Jersey. Its called owning up to ones actions. And a true patriot will do that. And will never make an excuse or inject it with a "but they do it too!" argument.

Again you misrepresent my position compelely - but that's not unusual for you. I didn't say they didn't **** up. But the facts aren't even out as to how big this is. All reports say that it was this one jail or one group of people. I never said "but they did it to" Please go back and reread my friggin posts, before you give your damn speeches.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
The point I am trying to make is quite simply that these are not isolated incidents, rather a pattern of behaviour; a systematic process of human rights abuses that the U.S. government not only condones, it endorses.

Does it? In these cases it's condoning this action? I love you say it's systematic process and so forth.

JerseyDevil, I'm sure you've had to deal with a tremendous amount of emotional hardship considering your location. But ask yourself what America stands for; and whether or not the practice of Rendering, or training brutal dictators, or torturing prisoners destroys those things. You talk about racism, but I think you are guilty of something far worse, jingoism. The same sort of thinking that allows someone to blow up a bus or a building ("they're not human, they're occupiers/infidels/evil") is the exact same logic you are using to justify torture and rape, and that is a frightening thought. I would think someone that had to endure 9/11 would be more in-tune with what it means to be a civilized, compassionate human. Instead you are sounding more like the people who organized the massacre. That is not to say that you are the same... but you're starting to rationalize America's behaviour by dehumanizing those that are a victim to it.

I'm not jinoistic - I'm realistic. Where the hell did I say that these prisoners shouls hdva been tortured. if you are referring to my comments regarding leaving the intelligence gathering operations in the hands of Saudi Arabia and so forth, the people actually who brought that up got it wrong. We don't hand over our captives to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - we let them capture them - and then thye can deal with them as they see fit. We are't handing over people to other countries to be tortured.

Actually, if they were being held as Prisoner's of War (which everyone else in the world thinks they are) they would be guaranteed a whole slew of rights which they have been denied for over two years now. You make it sound hunky-dory in there because one or two people haven't complained. Let me ask you this, why are they being held indefinitely? Are they all iminent threats? We have no way of knowing since they are all being held without a lawyer, and their cases are not being disclosed.

So - during World War II - how many prisoners had lawyers?

No, you're getting it backwards. America has a history of shipping suspects in its OWN CUSTODY to countries like Syria or Jordan to be tortured, often with no probable cause. A prime example would be Maher Arar. He knew someone who had a distant cousin connected to Al Queda. He was flying back to his home in Canada from the U.S. when he was detained by immigration officials and promptly shipped off to the middle East so he could be tortured for a whole year. What did his torturers find, absolutely nothing? But to you this is ok? I wonder, because he was a foreigner? A muslim? That same sort of thinking is what allows an otherwise sane human being to cheer when a corpse is hung from a bridge.

We just sent him back. We did not accompany him and place him under arrest.

Which group? The CIA? They're the ones who do this sort of thing. The White House? They have connections to the brutal dictatorships that ran El Salvador and Argentina. You're right, we should be outraged, at the American government. And if you're thinking they're operating through loopwholes you have a grossly inadequate understanding of American and International laws. The fact is that America is NOT "playing by the rules" when it tortures people.

So tell me - which people do we torture directly?

They are violating numerous elements of the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) as well as American Law and International Accords which the U.S. signed in good faith, including the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. charter. Rationalizing horrendous behaviour does NOT make it legitimate.

Which horrendous behavior have I condoned? I said the damn soldiers should be tried for treason. I don't know much clearer I can make it to you people. here let me do it this. THE ACTS PEPETRATED BY THOSE SOLDIERS WAS COMPLETELY HORRENDOUS AND THEY SHOULD BE IN JAIL FOREVER. Does that sound like I am condoning the damn actions of those soldiers?

If you have a problem with the way Saudi Arabia or Pakistan questions their prisoners - then have it up with them.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Mesada
Did anyone see the reports on the shooting on Saturday at Yanbu (spelling?). 2 Americans, 2 Britons and 1 Australian were killed. One confirmed person was being dragged through the streets by a car.

I knew about that - but not the dragging through the streets.

Did you hear about the Palestians killing a pregnant woman and her 4 children in Gaza?

BTW - you are right - the UN is a do nothing organization and constantly relies on the US. That is why they had to leave Somalia after we pulled out. The rest of the "world's" suposed troops couldn't handle it without the America there to hold their hand.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
Your last sentence here gicves me a strong feeling that you think that what the soliders did to the Iraqis was ok. I truly hope I'm wrong; but it seems like you want to do the same things to the terrorists as they do to you. Wouldn't that make you a terrorist too?

Well I wouldn't mind having Bin Ladin being drawn and quartered in lower Manhattan and his head put on display at ground zero for all to see. Sort of what they used to do on London Bridge.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I never said "but they did it to" Please go back and reread my friggin posts, before you give your damn speeches.

Jersey Devil said:

Excuse - we're not dancing on burning bodies and dancing on burning cars. We don't go out into the streets and cheer that the killing of innocent civilians. What was done was horrific - by a FEW people and they are paying for it. However – the Iraqis do the far worse, the Palestinians do far far worse

oh my bad. You actually said but they did worse. How silly of me.

Its not about you not condemning the acts or saying they are ok. Its simply about accepting what happened WITHOUT using it as an opportunity to turn the tables and attack others for their crimes as well. And you also ignore the fact that we SHOULD hold ourselves up to a higher standard then others. By saying well others do this and that you are ignoring that point. All you gotta say is we screwed up. We’ll do our best to fix it. And maybe even “Sorry”.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Jersey Devil said:


oh my bad. You actually said but they did worse. How silly of me.

Its not about you not condemning the acts or saying they are ok. Its simply about accepting what happened WITHOUT using it as an opportunity to turn the tables and attack others for their crimes as well. And you also ignore the fact that we SHOULD hold ourselves up to a higher standard then others. By saying well others do this and that you are ignoring that point. All you gotta say is we screwed up. We’ll do our best to fix it. And maybe even “Sorry”.

I can point out the things that they do - while I say I condemn the things that our soldiers did.

You know there aren't many threads here condemning the attacks that iraqis do, or that palestinians do. I brought up what they do - because all of this is about attacking the US. I just wanted to remind people that they should look at the attrocities we have to deal with while we are there. I'm sorry your highness if I overstepped your rules of what I was supposed to say. But as far as I'm concerned - I will speak my mind - whether you or anyone else like it. You don't have to condemn the palestians if you don't want to - or the Iraqis - I will condemn BOTH our soldiers who did this horrendous act AND the palestians and the Iraqis.

Oh and if you bothered reading my posts - you will see that I did say it was being fixed and that it should be fixed. However, I have nothing to be sorry for and I don't have to say "we're sorry" - I didn't torture those prisoners. The ones that should be sorry are the soldiers who did this and anyone involved - those are the only ones who should be sorry.

I don't say sorry for things I had no role in or condone.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You know there aren't many threads here condemning the attacks that iraqis do, or that palestinians do.

well why not start one then. then no one could give you crap for condeming others when it would be the subject of the thread. although I dont know how much discussion there would be in a thread like that. is there really a lot of people here who would argue with you about it not being ok to burn americans and drag them around and hang their bodies?

[Ultimatejoe]

The point I am trying to make is quite simply that these are not isolated incidents, rather a pattern of behaviour; a systematic process of human rights abuses that the U.S. government not only condones, it endorses.

Does it? In these cases it's condoning this action? I love you say it's systematic process and so forth.

Yes, it does. The rest of my post proved it.

JerseyDevil, I'm sure you've had to deal with a tremendous amount of emotional hardship considering your location. But ask yourself what America stands for; and whether or not the practice of Rendering, or training brutal dictators, or torturing prisoners destroys those things. You talk about racism, but I think you are guilty of something far worse, jingoism. The same sort of thinking that allows someone to blow up a bus or a building ("they're not human, they're occupiers/infidels/evil") is the exact same logic you are using to justify torture and rape, and that is a frightening thought. I would think someone that had to endure 9/11 would be more in-tune with what it means to be a civilized, compassionate human. Instead you are sounding more like the people who organized the massacre. That is not to say that you are the same... but you're starting to rationalize America's behaviour by dehumanizing those that are a victim to it.

I'm not jinoistic - I'm realistic. Where the hell did I say that these prisoners shouls hdva been tortured. if you are referring to my comments regarding leaving the intelligence gathering operations in the hands of Saudi Arabia and so forth, the people actually who brought that up got it wrong. We don't hand over our captives to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - we let them capture them - and then thye can deal with them as they see fit. We are't handing over people to other countries to be tortured.

You didn't. You did say however that you have no problem with torture in principle, which is what I was calling you out on. Who is putting words in who's mouth:

i don't have a problem with us having countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan interegating the likes of Al Qaeda and using any means possible

See, it certainly sounds like you're condoning torture; just so long as Americans aren't doing it. So, does it matter to a human being WHO is torturing them when they're being tortured? The above rationalization is EXACTLY what I was talking about... and there is no sense in denying that you said it.

Your understanding of the rendering process is also extremely flawed. The U.S. EXPORTS PRISONERS to countries to be tortured. They do HAND THEM OVER. It is not a scenario where the government lets them take a first crack. Maher Arar was on American soil flying to Canada when he was detained by American officials, who then flew him to the Middle East. If that's not "handing over people" would you care to explain what is?

So - during World War II - how many prisoners had lawyers?

None, because they were recognized as prisoners of war. The United States has denied that status to the occupants of Camp X-Ray. Thank you for proving my point for me.

If you have a problem with the way Saudi Arabia or Pakistan questions their prisoners - then have it up with them.

Lets say for argument's sake that I give a gun to a pyschopath , and tell him that it will "help solve your problems." He then goes and shoots up a movie theatre full of people. By your logic, I would bare no responsibility. That is what I call rationalization. That is what you are doing. Absolving your government of actions that it may not directly perpetrate, but that it is directly involved in.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Mesada
The UN is as corrupt as any single government, the fact that they are investigating themselves gives one pause. The US doesn't need permission to do anything from anybody. NOT because the US is powerful but because the US is a free nation.

The UN is a passive body. Kinda like the mother who always says "You wait till your father gets home" but never says a word. They didn't take action and I doubt they will be doing too much pro-active stuff now.

Did anyone see the reports on the shooting on Saturday at Yanbu (spelling?). 2 Americans, 2 Britons and 1 Australian were killed. One confirmed person was being dragged through the streets by a car.

Who is set up to investigate the UN?

Individual countries, like the US as well as others, need to learn that this world is far smaller than is generally believed. We all need to work together in this world. United we stand, divided we fall... and if we are corrupted by personal gain, we fall even harder.

[Ruinel]

Photos allege abuse of Iraqis by British troops

LONDON, England (CNN) --
London's Daily Mirror newspaper has published photographs that purportedly show British soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, including one picture of a soldier urinating on a hooded detainee.

Is this sort of treatment really necessary? I understand the anger of the British soldiers toward the Iraqis, having stones thrown at them when they come to aid victims of a car bombing (which included children! ) and such. However, it takes a strong person to continue to be civilized under that sort of emotion and strain. I suppose the Brits just weren't up to it.


It just sort of makes one... sick.

[Earniel]

I've merged the 'American soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis'-thread with the 'British soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis' thread since they're basically the same thing.

[Lief Erikson]

I wanted to post to say that I am an American, and I am deeply sorry for the acts of some of our soldiers. I earnestly believe that we went into that country with good intentions, intentions of stopping those same kinds of things from happening in multitudes of incidents on a regular basis. It is shaming to see that some of us fell to the same level, and that our Intelligence "did not stop it"/"did not know about it".

That photographs were taken in this instance implies to me that there were more occurrences of such that are probably unphotographed. That some of our soldiers would descend to that level is horrible. They are undoing by their actions the meaning for which the war was initiated in the first place. The WMD of course was part of it, but in my opinion, saving those people from the oppression of such an evil regime was a worthwhile cause in itself. We came into Iraq to do good, and I think that we are bringing about good in that country. When some do these kinds of filthy acts of abuse, they are swiftly destroying the good that hundreds of Americans and coalition soldiers have laid down their lives to bring about.

There should be a very deep, detailed, and public investigation. Not only of these occurrences, but of other such occurrences that have likely happened.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I will condemn BOTH our soldiers who did this horrendous act AND the palestians and the Iraqis.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I wouldn't mind having Bin Ladin being drawn and quartered in lower Manhattan and his head put on display at ground zero for all to see. Sort of what they used to do on London Bridge.

If you feel that people under certain conditions deserve this kind of punishment, then how are the terrorists so much to blame? Think about it. They consider America to be "The Great Satan". They believe that they are fighting a righteous war against diabolical evil.

If you believe that killing Bin Laden in an excrutiating fashion is just, then how can we accuse them? All that we can accuse them of is making an intellectual error. It is not the act that is heinous, in that case, but the intellectual mistake.

These people are absolutely convinced that we are the Great Satan. Therefore they would be utterly justified in wreaking utter vengeance upon us.


I personally believe that it is the act that is evil, to a far greater extent than the intellectual error. Therefore the terrorists are not justified in their acts, and we would not be justified in mutilating the living Bin Laden.

If you believe that it can be right for us to punish certain people in these manner, then you don't believe torture is evil. Instead, you believe that intellectual errors are what you have the right to punish people so sorely for making. That belief seems ridiculous, to me. Everyone makes intellectual errors. It is the act of violence itself that is evil.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I've merged the 'American soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis'-thread with the 'British soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis' thread since they're basically the same thing.

My precious Brit-bashing thread! *snif*

Just kidding!

[brownjenkins]

well put lief... as i said in the beginning of this thread, what is important is taking responsibility for our actions... if there is any good that may come out of this incident, it is a bit of self-inspection on the part of our leaders

there has been a tendency among some of our leaders to represent the US as the ultimate moral authority in the world, as opposed to a force with good intentions, yet is just as human and possible of doing both good and bad as anyone else

edit: i read this in an article on the internet over the weekend and was curious about the blatancy of it... in looking it up this morning it was not in the official transcript of the speech, so i must assume it is not true... sorry for misleading... i still stand behind my sentiments, but this should not be considered support

in the state of the union address in 2003 bush said: “With the might of God on our side we will triumph over Iraq. God will watch over our troops and grant us a victory over the threat of Saddam’s army. God will bless us and keep us safe in the coming battle.”

whether one is religious or not, this implication of a kind of higher moral authority behind US actions carries on down to the foot soldier and can lead to an attitude where the general belief becomes "we can do no wrong", and "the ends justify the means"

hopefully this will inspire those same leaders to take a step back and ask themselves "what kind of attitude am i promoting among my people?"

[Lizra]

He said all that "god" stuff! Oh brother! No way I can vote for someone who says silly stuff like that. (IMO) That sounds crazy. I sure hope Kerry doesn't spout off a bunch of "god" babble. Then I'll be stuck not voting! Sorry to go off topic...

[brownjenkins]

i think the source for the above quote is somewhat questionable after further inspection... read my correction... sorry for misktake Lizra

here's the only mention of god i found from the end of that 2003 speach:

Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. (Applause.)

We Americans have faith in ourselves, but not in ourselves alone. We do not know -- we do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history.

May He guide us now. And may God continue to bless the United States of America. (Applause.)