Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Spock]

Originally posted by Radagast
I didn't know you American-types had Brigadier-Generals, I thought they were an entirely British rank. Brits use:
Whereas I thought you used the star system?

Brigadier-General, ONE STAR
Major-General, TWO STARS
Lieutenant-General THREE STARS
General (usually of an Army) FOUR STARS

FIVE STARS reserved for commander of a world wide crisis, generally.

[Nerdanel]

Terrible. I do not have any understanding towards things like this. How can a human being do something like that?
One day I watched The Pianist by Roman Polanskij (sp?) and I was stunned. It's the same thing happening here, every day in every war.

That was the worst violation they could do to those Iraqis - they'd raher have been killed than degraded this way. We all have to work for this violation against human rights to stop!

[Spock]

Well for them it was degrading just like drading American corpses through the streets is degrading for us. Now their doing it in Saudi Arabia. It seems to be the new fad.
..I guess we should just be "kinder and gentler"?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
what im saying is that the iraqis never trumpeted themselves as being the height of morality and fairness but we do and when this assumption falls through and we prove ourselves to be less then moral ( EVEN if its half a dozen singular unregulate american soldiers) and you have to admit that you cringed horribly when you heard about this. I know I sure did. Because I know we have a lot to live up to. its a little disngenuous to say hey well other countries do worse deal with it when things like this happens. we need to cringe and deal with the hypocripsy involved when something like this happens. and not make excuses.

Excuse - we're not dancing on burning bodies and dancing on burning cars. We don't go out into the streets and cheer that the killing of innocent civilians. What was done was horrific - by a FEW people and they are paying for it. However - the Iraqis do the far worse, the Palestinians do far far worse - and who is condemning them?

I don't condone what the soldiers did and I think they should be hung for treason - because what they have done is inflamed arab hostilities even more toward Americans. They should be charged for treason as far as I'm concerned. But what sorry do the Middle Eastern countries really show toward the brutality they issue. Do you really think Al Jazeera broadcast the burning and hung corspes of our people in a sympathitic and disgusted light?

I agree with SGH - there is a double standard - but the thing is WE DO NOT CONDONE this behavior. The world rejoices when an American screws up - or the US in general screws up.

And I agree with spock on the complete naivete on dealing with evil in this world. It's laughable some of the suggestions.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes, we have Brigadier Generals and Generals, but I haven't heard of Major Generals, or Lieutenant Generals, but I'm not too learned on the names of military ranks either.

There are a bunch of links in the Revolutionary War thread discussing the ranks of Generals.

By the way Radagast - do you know how condescending you sound with the "you American-types". What type are we? You can basically hear the contempt you have there.

[Hemel]

I think this quote from the Sunday Herald perhaps helps sum up the issue.

Then came the pictures of US personnel torturing Iraqi prisoners. Let’s remember first that we were told the reasons for going to war were because of the threats posed by Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction. When none were found the story changed to the liberation of Iraq from the horrific barbarity visited upon Iraqis by Saddam’s henchmen who systematically tortured, killed and repressed ordinary Iraqis. We were reminded of the human rights abuses and how the coalition would return the country to a civilised government and the people to the joys of democracy.

Then we see the disgraceful photographs of US service personnel committing acts of barbarism against Iraqi prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison. More than anything else, these images provided a defining image of the futility and immorality of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. Here we saw them doing exactly the same thing by using their power and authority to humiliate their prisoners. Getting rid of this kind of behaviour was supposed to be the saving grace of the US intervention.

And let’s not get carried away thinking only ill-disciplined American soldiers go in for this kind of thing. As we report on the front page, Amnesty International has found that British troops in Basra have been guilty of the same behaviour, which they catalogue as including prolonged hooding, exposure to loud music and bright lights, deprivation of water and food, and so on.

JD, I don't think that it's a valid argument to suggest that others do far worse, and they aren't condemned. Apart from anything else, if the US believes that it should be a world police (and therein lies a whole packet of issues anyway) then it really does have to do its best to be above reproach.

Oh, and '*-types' is a construction I use myself. It's not uncommon. Certainly when I use it it's not intended to be contemptuous or derogatory ... more said with a sense of humour.

And ... so why WERE the photos published? And would you have preferred that they weren't, and that these things were kept secret? Remember, one of the reasons given for their publication was to highlight why there was such resistance to coalition forces.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
I think this quote from the Sunday Herald perhaps helps sum up the issue.
JD, I don't think that it's a valid argument to suggest that others do far worse, and they aren't condemned. Apart from anything else, if the US believes that it should be a world police (and therein lies a whole packet of issues anyway) then it really does have to do its best to be above reproach.

The thing is is that the soldiers are the ones who did it and UNITED STATES is prosecuting them to the fullest extent. It isn't like the US condoned it and turned away from the situation. What more do you want? Their heads on a platter? You want them stipped naked and set into Baghdad so they can be stoned to death - that is a valid punishment in many Middle Eastern countries.

You act as if America did this and the we support this.

As for the Sun article - that isn't entirely true - because HERE the reason for goiing to war wasn't only for WMD - that was only one of MANY reasons - one of the first reasons, along with WMD, was to bring down Hussein and bring demcracy to the Middle East.

Oh, and '*-types' is a construction I use myself. It's not uncommon. Certainly when I use it it's not intended to be contemptuous or derogatory ... more said with a sense of humour.

Well then it must be a cultural thing - because here it sounds contemptuous as if the other "types" are beneath the speaker.

And ... so why WERE the photos published? And would you have preferred that they weren't, and that these things were kept secret? Remember, one of the reasons given for their publication was to highlight why there was such resistance to coalition forces.

That wasn't why they were published. CBS got their hands on them and decided to broadcast them. The issue has been being dealt with, the story had been out there for a month. The people were already being procecuted WITHOUT the photos. And I seriously doubt that it is so why spread that this demonstrates why there is resitance in Iraq. There is resistance in Iraq mostly because Sadr wants to gain power and Al Qaeda is trying to take control in order to set up Iraq as their new Afganistan.

And I already said that the soldiers should be tried for treason. Do the Palestinians take action against their suicide bombers when they bring down the peace process like that?

[GrayMouser]

The suggestion by Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski that the reservists acted at the behest of military intelligence officers appears largely supported in a still-classified Army report on prison conditions in Iraq that documented many of the worst abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, including the sexual humiliation of prisoners.

The New Yorker magazine said in its new edition that the report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba found that reservist military police at the prison were urged by Army military officers and C.I.A. agents to "set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses."

According to the New Yorker article, the Army report offered accounts of rampant and gruesome abuse from October to December of 2003 that included the sexual assault of an Iraqi detainee with a chemical light stick or broomstick.

While reports of abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American and British soldiers have come to light in the last several days, the report cited by The New Yorker indicates a far more wide-ranging and systematic pattern of cruelties than previously reported.

General Karpinski was formally admonished in January and "quietly suspended" from commanding the 800th Military Police Brigade, the New Yorker article reports. while under investigation.

In a phone interview from her home in South Carolina in which she offered her first public comments about the growing international furor over the abuse of the Iraq detainees, General Karpinski said the special high-security cellblock at Abu Ghraib had been under the direct control of Army intelligence officers, not the reservists under her command.
.......
General Karpinski said she was speaking out because she believed that military commanders were trying to shift the blame exclusively to her and other reservists and away from intelligence officers still at work in Iraq.

"We're disposable," she said of the military's attitude toward reservists. "Why would they want the active-duty people to take the blame? They want to put this on the M.P.'s and hope that this thing goes away. Well, it's not going to go away."
...............
General Karpinski noted that one of the photographs of abused prisoners also showed the legs of 16 American soldiers — the photograph was cropped so that their upper bodies could not be seen — "and that tells you that clearly other people were participating, because I didn't have 16 people assigned to that cellblock

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/in...agewanted=2&hp

Sorry, guys, but this was policy, not perversion.

I'm sure the Army is extremely angry that this happened, because of the rage it's going to generate in Iraq, but the CIA/ DIA were the ones in charge.

Much of the abuse was sexual, with prisoners often kept naked and forced to perform simulated and real sex acts, witnesses testified. Mr. Hersh notes that such degradations, while deeply offensive in any culture, are particularly humiliating to Arabs because Islamic law and culture so strongly condemn nudity and homosexuality.

So a bunch of reservists were either a spontaneous gathering of an S&M club, or thought this up all by themselves?
I wonder from whom the 'contractors' involved received their training in interrogation techniques 'particulary humiliating to Arabs'?

[Ultimatejoe]

It is naive to think that everyone out there is friendly and easy going... that is true. It is equally naive to think that the U.S. is any different. The U.S. has a long history of torture and human rights abuses. Now, this RARELY happens on U.S. soil, but that is really a function of convenience. America has tremendous political capital all over the globe, and this allows her to export the less-than-friendly elements of her intelligence machine abroad. You think that the fighters from Afghanistan are being held in Cuba for security? By removing them from U.S. soil (or keeping them off of it) the U.S. is able to withhold rights which they would otherwise be entitled to. The rendering process (turning over suspected terrorists to countries like Jordan and Syria where torture is permitted) is one that has been admitted to by George Tenet at the 9/11 hearings. The U.S. also sponsored numerous programs to develop 'counter-insurgency' practices in it's South American allies; including torture and terrorist-style political action.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
It is naive to think that everyone out there is friendly and easy going... that is true. It is equally naive to think that the U.S. is any different. The U.S. has a long history of torture and human rights abuses.

As does EVERY country. That doesn't mean we accept it today though.

Now, this RARELY happens on U.S. soil, but that is really a function of convenience. America has tremendous political capital all over the globe, and this allows her to export the less-than-friendly elements of her intelligence machine abroad. You think that the fighters from Afghanistan are being held in Cuba for security? By removing them from U.S. soil (or keeping them off of it) the U.S. is able to withhold rights which they would otherwise be entitled to.

That is because they are not entitled to the Constitution. They are prisoners in a war. They have been checked on - they are given islamic food and prayer time. A teenager who was kept there actually didn't want to leave. I have no problem with them being kept in Cuba - it's better than bringing them here.

The rendering process (turning over suspected terrorists to countries like Jordan and Syria where torture is permitted) is one that has been admitted to by George Tenet at the 9/11 hearings.

That was stated AFTER 9/11. It was NO secret that they let Middle Eastern countries handle the intergation first because they don't have to abide by the same rules that America does. I don't really see a problem. If people have a problem with that - they should condemn the countries that do that type of interagation.

The U.S. also sponsored numerous programs to develop 'counter-insurgency' practices in it's South American allies; including torture and terrorist-style political action.

Again - if there is a problem - the world should be outraged by those groups. It's all loopholes. If you want to take care of the problems - then have everyone live up to the same standards. The US is playing by the rules - even if you don't like it.

[Lizra]

My personal opinion on this is that this is a war.....war IS horrific....and the saying "All's fair in love and WAR" rings true, for all involved. While some may play *dirtier* than others, it is war...and there are not going to be many saints. A *clean, quick* war is extremely rare. There is too much at stake for those involved, desperate times lead to desperate people...brace yourself, probably more bad/evil times to come, till this situation is stablized/resolved.

[Millane]

so the US is handing its suspects to countries that allow torture, so that they can keep their hands clean. and you think thats alright JD because the US isnt the ones that are literally doing the torturing... i must be misunderstanding you
(please forgive my vague post as you can probably tell im with Sminty_Smeagol, **** politics )

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
And another thing-these peope, the soldiers, are IN THE MIDST OF CHAOS, alot of them are going to go nuts.

well what the **** are they in the army for, seriously if what your doing is trying to make excuses for what these soldiers did i wouldnt bother, if i said "its not Saddams fault that he killed and tortured some people, he was IN THE MIDST OF VAST POWER, of course he's going to go nuts" i could find an equally poor excuse for anything you can think of that is 'wrong'...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
so the US is handing its suspects to countries that allow torture, so that they can keep their hands clean. and you think thats alright JD because the US isnt the ones that are literally doing the torturing... i must be misunderstanding you
(please forgive my vague post as you can probably tell im with Sminty_Smeagol, **** politics )

Actual;ly - you understand me very well. i don't have a problem with us having countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan interegating the likes of Al Qaeda and using any means possible, We're not doing it - if you have problem with it - get on the case of those countries. The UN turns a blind, everyone else turns a blind eye to those countries. If you don't like it - then start demonstrating against those countries - instead of people always complaining about the US.

There were 3,000 people killed - innocent people - inside of an hour 45 minutes from where I live. Now ask me if I care for the likes of Al Qaeda - a group of people who have PUBLICLY said they want to destroy the WEST not just the United - but Australia, European and any moderate muslim country.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Excuse - we're not dancing on burning bodies and dancing on burning cars. We don't go out into the streets and cheer that the killing of innocent civilians. What was done was horrific - by a FEW people and they are paying for it. However - the Iraqis do the far worse, the Palestinians do far far worse - and who is condemning them?

you totally missed the entire point of my post didnt you. honestly you need to get away from the "well they started it!!!" approach to justifying american wrongs. it doesnt matter what others have done. whats at issue here is that these things SHOULDNT have been done. period. no need to try to turn the tables. no need to try to explain it away. no need to say we should be condeming others instead. we simply need to say hey we messed up (yes "we" even though it was a hand full of renegades that certainly DIDNT reflect the thinking of all americans as Ive stated several times now). And we need to deal with the FACT that yes it WILL hurt our ability to deal with the situation in Iraq both with Iraqis and with our own allies. Truth be told, Americans DO see themselves as more civilized then middle easterners. Theres just no getting around that. So when we do something like this saying "yeah well OTHERS did too!" is having a double standard.

All I said was that there should have been a collective slapping of the forehead when we found out about what happened. Not a collective shrugging of the shoulders or a collective pointing of the finger at others. If we hold ourselves up to a higher standard then we have to accept what it means when we fail to keep that high standard on occasion. Its ok to say WE #&$@ed UP once in a while Jersey. Its called owning up to ones actions. And a true patriot will do that. And will never make an excuse or inject it with a "but they do it too!" argument.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lizra
My personal opinion on this is that this is a war.....war IS horrific....and the saying "All's fair in love and WAR" rings true, for all involved. While some may play *dirtier* than others, it is war...and there are not going to be many saints. A *clean, quick* war is extremely rare. There is too much at stake for those involved, desperate times lead to desperate people...brace yourself, probably more bad/evil times to come, till this situation is stablized/resolved.

um.. Lizra are you saying it was ok what happened to those prisoners because anything goes in war? Is this meant to be justification? Please correct my translation of what you are saying here if I have it wrong...

[Ruinel]

I'd like to say, I condemn the torturing of prisoners, by the US or the UK, or any other country, whether it's in Iraq or Bosnia or anywhere else.

I'd like to add that the war in Iraq should have been headed by the UN!!! Not the US!!! (Personally, I was totally against this war. If the world did not act together, as one body, then it shouldn't happen. period!)

That the UN is now finally becoming active in this mess, is a good thing. But it's a little late, IMO.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
um.. Lizra are you saying it was ok what happened to those prisoners because anything goes in war? Is this meant to be justification? Please correct my translation of what you are saying here if I have it wrong...

Yes you do have it wrong. What I'm saying is that ..."War is horrific". Brace yourselves. This type of thing has, and will unfortunately continue to happen on BOTH sides, no matter how much we would like to think otherwise. My statement was not made as justification. I feel that there will not be "fair play" in war situations. I still would like to find other ways to "skin the cat" than modern warfare.

[Spock]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ruinel
[B]I'd like to add that the war in Iraq should have been headed by the UN!!! Not the US!!!

The UN has never soved any conflict in any area it's ever gone into without the US paying the bills and the price in human life. Twelve years of "you better behave" UN resolutions produced nothing. The haven't been and still can't field a force that's effective and composed of major nations as oppsed to what they do now with third world nation troops.
The US was the only one who could do something and so it did. It ain't pretty but Iraq is underway for change.

[Sween]

I hate to say it but im with JD on this it is entirely expected that some people will let the side down and act in a completally unprofessional and wrong way. If a isolated group of people decide to do something wrong there isnt much that can be done by the looks of it this was a small unit which would of had a de centralized mangement structure in other words there are wholey responisable for there actions.

We should expected better of our fellow countryment i mean i wouldnt do that kinda stuff but at the same time i wouldnt rape someone which fellow englismen do so you cannot look as people as just one race cos well thats rascism isnt it.

But the US seem to be dealing with in in the correct procedures

[Ultimatejoe]

Originally posted by Sween
We should expected better of our fellow countryment i mean i wouldnt do that kinda stuff but at the same time i wouldnt rape someone which fellow englismen do so you cannot look as people as just one race cos well thats rascism isnt it.

The point I am trying to make is quite simply that these are not isolated incidents, rather a pattern of behaviour; a systematic process of human rights abuses that the U.S. government not only condones, it endorses.

JerseyDevil, I'm sure you've had to deal with a tremendous amount of emotional hardship considering your location. But ask yourself what America stands for; and whether or not the practice of Rendering, or training brutal dictators, or torturing prisoners destroys those things. You talk about racism, but I think you are guilty of something far worse, jingoism. The same sort of thinking that allows someone to blow up a bus or a building ("they're not human, they're occupiers/infidels/evil") is the exact same logic you are using to justify torture and rape, and that is a frightening thought. I would think someone that had to endure 9/11 would be more in-tune with what it means to be a civilized, compassionate human. Instead you are sounding more like the people who organized the massacre. That is not to say that you are the same... but you're starting to rationalize America's behaviour by dehumanizing those that are a victim to it.

That is because they are not entitled to the Constitution. They are prisoners in a war.

Actually, if they were being held as Prisoner's of War (which everyone else in the world thinks they are) they would be guaranteed a whole slew of rights which they have been denied for over two years now. You make it sound hunky-dory in there because one or two people haven't complained. Let me ask you this, why are they being held indefinitely? Are they all iminent threats? We have no way of knowing since they are all being held without a lawyer, and their cases are not being disclosed.

It was NO secret that they let Middle Eastern countries handle the intergation first because they don't have to abide by the same rules that America does. I don't really see a problem. If people have a problem with that - they should condemn the countries that do that type of interagation.

No, you're getting it backwards. America has a history of shipping suspects in its OWN CUSTODY to countries like Syria or Jordan to be tortured, often with no probable cause. A prime example would be Maher Arar. He knew someone who had a distant cousin connected to Al Queda. He was flying back to his home in Canada from the U.S. when he was detained by immigration officials and promptly shipped off to the middle East so he could be tortured for a whole year. What did his torturers find, absolutely nothing? But to you this is ok? I wonder, because he was a foreigner? A muslim? That same sort of thinking is what allows an otherwise sane human being to cheer when a corpse is hung from a bridge.

Again - if there is a problem - the world should be outraged by those groups. It's all loopholes. If you want to take care of the problems - then have everyone live up to the same standards. The US is playing by the rules - even if you don't like it.

Which group? The CIA? They're the ones who do this sort of thing. The White House? They have connections to the brutal dictatorships that ran El Salvador and Argentina. You're right, we should be outraged, at the American government. And if you're thinking they're operating through loopwholes you have a grossly inadequate understanding of American and International laws. The fact is that America is NOT "playing by the rules" when it tortures people. They are violating numerous elements of the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) as well as American Law and International Accords which the U.S. signed in good faith, including the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. charter. Rationalizing horrendous behaviour does NOT make it legitimate.