How powerful were these 'revised' Balrogs really?

[afro-elf]

Bropous, you are quite a whetting stone yourself.

[Kevin McIntyre]

I had always thought of Melkor and Sauron losing power over time because to make their weapons powerful they invested some of their own strength in the creature or weapon they were creating. The more times this was done the more power the Ainur would lose and become more and more bound to the physical world.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Arete, welcome Blackadder. I don't have anything else to say, so I won't say it.

[EdBlackadder]

Originally posted by Wayfarer


Nah... I was unclear on that again. But the nature of thier power is different, in that they were more physical, and thus they were more apt in that particular area.

Just as Melkor invested his power into matter, giving him power over it, severely weakened his power in other areas, so their physicality prevents them from using thier powers in the same way that others of the valar could.

The fact that they're weaker is completely seperate.

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre

I had always thought of Melkor and Sauron losing power over time because to make their weapons powerful they invested some of their own strength in the creature or weapon they were creating. The more times this was done the more power the Ainur would lose and become more and more bound to the physical world.

I'd sort of assumed that as well. And since even the Vala have some limitations and finite power (they don't have quite unlimited power), surely this would lead to them being 'dilluted' for lack of a better term.

Or have i got that completely wrong?

[Wayfarer]

Yes, that is correct.

Although, in melkor's case, he invested himself in the world at large, rather than a number of smaller objects.

When power is placed into an object or being, it becomes 'tied' to the enchanter. Sauron an dht ering is the classic, extreme, example.

Although dragons, orcs, and [to a much lesser degree] even evil men are shown ot be tied to the dark lords who invest power in controlling them.

[Agburanar]

At the field of Cormallen the orcs etc. lost their will when Sauron was destroyed.

[Wayfarer]

Yes.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre
How much power do the elven-rings provide in battle? I thought their power was to preserve life. Strength of heart or character is perhaps enhanced, but does a posseser of one of these rings get butt-kicking ability?

The Elven-rings enhanced the wearer's native abilities, as anyone who has read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien thoroughly should know.

Glorfindel's battle with the Balrog is not documented in any text relevant to The Lord of the Rings, but given the assumption (Tolkien made) that he did kill a Balrog in the First Age, he should have been able to do it again under similar circumstances in the Third Age. In fact, in one of his last writings, Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel, after he was released from Mandos, was more powerful than he had been in his first life. He became more like one of the Maiar.

[Ñólendil]

But Tolkien also said in that Last Writings text you're alluding to that his battle with the Balrog may need revision. What he had in mind I don't know (obviously), but maybe Glorfindel wouldn't have fought the Balrog all alone. For a while now I've envisioned Glorfindel and a handful of Eagles holding the pass against the demon.

Or maybe he only meant the battle should have been extended several days, the Balrog should look like the one from the LotR, and there should be magic in there, I don't know.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
But Tolkien also said in that Last Writings text you're alluding to that his battle with the Balrog may need revision. What he had in mind I don't know (obviously), but maybe Glorfindel wouldn't have fought the Balrog all alone. For a while now I've envisioned Glorfindel and a handful of Eagles holding the pass against the demon.

It is pretty certain that Tolkien intended to keep Glorfindel's sacrifice and battle with the Balrog. The fact of the encounter and sacrifice was never in doubt. Only the details.

Whether Glorfindel led an army against the Balrog, or simply tumbled over a cliff with it, he would still have been instrumental in its death.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez


The Elven-rings enhanced the wearer's native abilities, as anyone who has read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien thoroughly should know.

I think that is also within the text of the LOTR as well, that it enhanced ones native abilities. I had thought I had read somewhere that the three elven rings had a different purpose in mind when Celebrimbor forged them. Of the great rings Sauron had the least to do with the making of the three?

[ragamuffin92]

If memory serves, Sauron had nothing at all to do with the Three. In fact, he never even saw them.

[Agburanar]

No. Sauron never knew about the making of the three elven rings until they were finished, and he never saw or touched them.

[EdBlackadder]

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre


I think that is also within the text of the LOTR as well, that it enhanced ones native abilities. I had thought I had read somewhere that the three elven rings had a different purpose in mind when Celebrimbor forged them. Of the great rings Sauron had the least to do with the making of the three?

I thought that was that the great Rings gave power to their bearer 'according to his stature', so Frodo and Bilbo got fairly minor benefits (such as invisibilty and extended life) while one such as Sauron or Gandalf would gain immense power.

[Agburanar]

Power according to stature, but the rings had their own different effects. An elf bearing Nenya would gain a different skill to the same elf bearing Narya, but would gain the same amount of 'power' at that skill. Vilya is maybe a different theory as it was the greatest of the elf rings, so presumably added more power.

[Elvellon]

As far as I remember there was another elf that killed a balrog (Gotmog the captain of Morgoth’s guard) Ecthelion of the Fountain, captain of Gondolin’s armies. I don’t remember if this was revised but I don’t think so. Personally I doubt that the sacrifices of Glorfindel and Ecthelion would have been discarded, they are quite powerful in the story, specially with the revised balrogs in it.

[Captain Stern]

So then...Glorfindel's battle with the Balrog probably would have held up

Am I right in assuming that Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog was entirely made up by Christopher Tolkien? I would guess that if Tolkien had lived long enough to complete The Silmarillion, Gothmog would have met his end in the War of Wrath.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Am I right in assuming that Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog was entirely made up by Christopher Tolkien? I would guess that if Tolkien had lived long enough to complete The Silmarillion, Gothmog would have met his end in the War of Wrath.

No. Christopher had to compose a complete story for "Of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin" in [i]The Silmarillion. He based his narrative on "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" (published in Unfinished Tales) and "The Fall of Gondolin" (published in The Book of Lost Tales). "The Fall of Gondolin" is the oldest surviving story Tolkien ever wrote, dating from 1916/7. "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" is only a fragment, written in the late 1950s or early 1960s, and it breaks off as Tuor passes through the last gate.

The whole attack on Gondolin is therefore based on the outdated Book of Lost Tales material. Wherever Christopher could update the facts through comparison with other texts, he did so. But he had to make a lot of editorial decisions. A similar process was required for "Of Maeglin" and "The Ruin of Doriath" (and there was virtually no narrative for the "Ruin of Doriath" which Christopher could hope to incorporate -- he had only a few rough notes his father had left and snippets from various other texts).

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by Michael Martinez


The Elven-rings enhanced the wearer's native abilities, as anyone who has read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien thoroughly should know.

Michael, am I imagining a Tolkien essay regarding the elven rings, in terms of their nature being significantly different than the other rings of power. Thats what I was trying to get at in my previous posts. I'm not sure what reference (if any) this came from.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre


Michael, am I imagining a Tolkien essay regarding the elven rings, in terms of their nature being significantly different than the other rings of power. Thats what I was trying to get at in my previous posts. I'm not sure what reference (if any) this came from.

In Letter 131, Tolkien enumerated the most important powers of the Rings. There he said the chief power of all the Rings was to prevent or slow decay or change. He said that other powers included the ability to see invisible things and to render visible things invisible. But he also distinguished the Three from the rest, saying they did not confer invisibility.

In "The Council of Elrond", Elrond tells the others present that "those who made [the Rings] did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained."

However, he precedes that statement with: "The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power."

It has often been inferred by many people that Elrond went on to describe powers which were unique to the Three. But what made the Three unique, in my opinion, was the fact they were not associated with invisibility and invisible things and that Tolkien described them (in Letter 131) as "Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely [made of the Elves' own imagination], and directed to the preservation of beauty".

This last statement implies to me that Tolkien meant all the Rings were intended to slow or prevent decay (the effects of Time), but that the Three were extremely powerful and were dedicated toward the preservation of specific things which the Elven peoples appreciated. That is, I think the Three were more refined than the Seven or the Nine in their powers of preservation.