Al qaeda: what they want....

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Do you recommend war with Saudi Arabia then?

no, but i didn't recommend war with iraq either... and as far as afghanistan goes... we have a skeleton force there these days that is doing all it can just to keep things in order in kabul alone

we are in a position of power, economic as well as military, a lot more than we seem to be willing to bring to bear in countries like saudi arabia and israel... if we expect them to solve all their disputes first, we'll be waiting much longer than ten years

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
no, but i didn't recommend war with iraq either... and as far as afghanistan goes... we have a skeleton force there these days that is doing all it can just to keep things in order in kabul alone

we are in a position of power, economic as well as military, a lot more than we seem to be willing to bring to bear in countries like saudi arabia and israel... if we expect them to solve all their disputes first, we'll be waiting much longer than ten years

So - you didn't support going into Iraq - a country which has continuously threatened it's neighbors, was repeatedly shotting at our planes enforcing the UN no fly zone - but you think we should get heavy on Saudi Arabia - which has not threatened any of it's neighbors.

Oh - and we have gotten hard on them - as well as israel several times. But with Israel - the terrorists continue to bomb - they have a right to defend themselves.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So - you didn't support going into Iraq - a country which has continuously threatened it's neighbors, was repeatedly shotting at our planes enforcing the UN no fly zone - but you think we should get heavy on Saudi Arabia - which has not threatened any of it's neighbors.

Oh - and we have gotten hard on them - as well as israel several times. But with Israel - the terrorists continue to bomb - they have a right to defend themselves.

equal treatment is the key... our economic hold on iraq had quite an effect on their ability to continue as they were pre-kuwait... look at how easily they went down... look at their inability to have an even remotely substantial weapons program post-1991

we'll never know how long saddam would have been able to hold onto power under such conditions... but we had reduced him to little more than an annoyance

you don't think we have any power, short of military action, to move other countries towards democracy?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
equal treatment is the key... our economic hold on iraq had quite an effect on their ability to continue as they were pre-kuwait... look at how easily they went down... look at their inability to have an even remotely substantial weapons program post-1991

we'll never know how long saddam would have been able to hold onto power under such conditions... but we had reduced him to little more than an annoyance

yeah - and look at how the people were suffering. Look at the behind closed door deals Hussein had with the UN. Millions or billions of dollars were funneled to Hussein through the Oil and Food program through the UN. Hussein wasn't hurting at all - only his people were hurting and the Middle East was blaming us.

Also - how long do you propose us doing that - keeping up the no fly zones and everything?

you don't think we have any power, short of military action, to move other countries towards democracy?

No - I do. I think that is the second phase after Iraq and Afganistan are on their way to democracy. But why should they go to democracy with out any show of force?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
..you don't think we have any power, short of military action, to move other countries towards democracy?

Do we have the right to move other countries towards democracy?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Do we have the right to move other countries towards democracy?

That has been the policy of this country since it was founded basically. To spread democracy and freedom around the world - of course it was our key goal AFTER WWII and continues to be so. Democratic countries are less likely to attack their neighbors, they have better freedoms, better economic levels.

Also - if it is in our best interest because people are attacking us because they are frustrated with THEIR governments - yes - we have a duty for our own survival to change those countries to the betterment for their people.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Do we have the right to move other countries towards democracy?

tough call... i'd like to think yes

i do know however, that i have a very hard time when i see us supporting countries that are not democratic

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
tough call... i'd like to think yes

i do know however, that i have a very hard time when i see us supporting countries that are not democratic

So do I - but sometimes a person has to deal with someone or some country which isn't the greatest. Hopefully we will continue to take an active role in bringing the Middle East toward democracy now - because that is the ONLY way to combat terrorism. If we don't - we will always be playing defense.

[Ruinel]

So, what is the solution? Do we hunt them all down? If we find them, what do we do? shouldn't it be a UN problem and not a US problem? Does the US have the right to find criminals outside of its borders, in another country?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, what is the solution? Do we hunt them all down? If we find them, what do we do? shouldn't it be a UN problem and not a US problem? Does the US have the right to find criminals outside of its borders, in another country?

We're not talking about criminals - we're talking about an army of terorsts trying to destroy us. We have operatives all over the world. We can't rely on the UN or any outside power for OUR security.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, what is the solution? Do we hunt them all down? If we find them, what do we do? shouldn't it be a UN problem and not a US problem? Does the US have the right to find criminals outside of its borders, in another country?

I don't think we'll ever be able to hunt them all down. There will always be people around who see terrorism as the only way to achieve their goal. More so also because it works. It works in the Middle East, it worked in Spain. That's not saying that we shouldn't try ro find them and bring justice to them, but I think we must realise that terrorism is always going to be a threat to us.

Yes I think it should be a UN problem. Tight co-operation between countries is needed. After the Madrid bombs the level of coordination between police authorities in European coutries was debated. There is not even possible to issue a common warrant.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That has been the policy of this country since it was founded basically. To spread democracy and freedom around the world - of course it was our key goal AFTER WWII and continues to be so. Democratic countries are less likely to attack their neighbors, they have better freedoms, better economic levels.

Also - if it is in our best interest because people are attacking us because they are frustrated with THEIR governments - yes - we have a duty for our own survival to change those countries to the betterment for their people.

So, my dear, dear comrade, by your logic, if America has a sovereign right to turn countries democratic, because it was the principle on which the US was founded, then does Saudi Arabia, a country founded on Islam, and believing that it has a right to turn all countries islamic, have that same right? What makes you right [FLAMEBAIT DELETED]




NOTE: Oh, and I've been away fishing, baby, hence no posts the last few days. Should of seen the size of the Snapper I pulled in...

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
So, my dear, dear comrade, by your logic, if America has a sovereign right to turn countries democratic, because it was the principle on which the US was founded, then does Saudi Arabia, a country founded on Islam, and believing that it has a right to turn all countries islamic, have that same right? What makes you right

You can call me whatever you like - [FLAME DELETED]

Anyway - as I said - WHEN those countries are a THREAT to the US - as the Middle East currently is with terrorism - then yes - we should turn those countries around and bring democracy. You think they enjoy the 50% unemployment there? Do you deny the fact that that is exactly what we did in Germany and Japan? We changed them into what we wanted them to be after World War II. And why was that? Because they were a threat if we didn't.

Also - generally the US brings democracy PEACEFULLY to countries - not by military.

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You can call me whatever you like

Anyway - as I said - WHEN those countries are a THREAT to the US - as the Middle East currently is with terrorism - then yes - we should turn those countries around and bring democracy. You think they enjoy the 50% unemployment there? Do you deny the fact that that is exactly what we did in Germany and Japan? We changed them into what we wanted them to be after World War II. And why was that? Because they were a threat if we didn't.

Also - generally the US brings democracy PEACEFULLY to countries - not by military.

Oh yeah, because all the Muslim countries are saying "Oh yes, please bring democracy to us," with open arms... And peacfully, you brought it to Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Japan, Cuba. Oh yeah, no wars there...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Oh yeah, because all the Muslim countries are saying "Oh yes, please bring democracy to us," with open arms... And peacfully, you brought it to Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Japan, Cuba. Oh yeah, no wars there...

japan started the war. Vietnam was to support the french - because it was a french colony. Cuba at one time was a terroritory of the US and they voted for freedom. We never actually attacked Cuba at all - nor do I see them have democracy now. One of the reasons Puerto Rico has only 7% approval for independence from the US is because of the example of Cuba. They are almost evenly split between staying part of the US as a territory or becoming a state. Iraq was against Hussein and was a job that should have been done in 1991.

I can't speak on Korea - because I don't know that much about it.

Do you support a world where Nazi Germany and Empirial Japan had won World War II?

By the way - Iran wanted democracy - the fanatical leaders outlawed the reform party members frmo running though. Also Bahrain and Qatar are moving toward democracy. So yes - there are countries in the Middle East that want democracy - some of those countries we ARE helping establish their election systems and so forth.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

OMG! Your doing one of those huge post replies you do, tearing apart every sentence and every syllable... Well carry on my good Jersydevil. Carry on!

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
japan started the war. Vietnam was to support the french - because it was a french colony. Cuba at one time was a terroritory of the US and they voted for freedom. We never actually attacked Cuba at all - nor do I see them have democracy now. One of the reasons Puerto Rico has only 7% approval for independence from the US is because of the example of Cuba. They are almost evenly split between staying part of the US as a territory or becoming a state. Iraq was against Hussein and was a job that should have been done in 1991.

I can't speak on Korea - because I don't know that much about it.

Do you support a world where Nazi Germany and Empirial Japan had won World War II?

By the way - Iran wanted democracy - the fanatical leaders outlawed the reform party members frmo running though. Also Bahrain and Qatar are moving toward democracy. So yes - there are countries in the Middle East that want democracy - some of those countries we ARE helping establish their election systems and so forth.

No, dear JD. But you said you bring democracy peacefully. PEACEFULLY. So, did you?

And gee, Qatar and Bahrain want democracy? Well UN, pack up shop and head for Switzerland, there is no more Mid East problem...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
No, dear JD. But you said you bring democracy peacefully. PEACEFULLY. So, did you?

And gee, Qatar and Bahrain want democracy? Well UN, pack up shop and head for Switzerland, there is no more Mid East problem...

Yes - there are countries we have brought democracy to peacefully. Australia came to the US to learn about the Constitution and modeled theirs after ours.

Well- resolutions and the useless Un weren't doing anythign with Iraq - other than funnelling money to Hussein that is. The Middle East has been a disaster for a long long time - it's going to take a lot more than just a couple of years to turn things around.

So tell me - what has the great UN done in the Middle East? What peace have they accomplished there? I'd like to see the wars they have stopped - did they stop the Rwanda slaughter? Did they stay after the US left Somalia to finish their job? NO - they didn't.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yes - there are countries we have brought democracy to peacefully.

Well- resolutions and the useless Un weren't doing anythign with Iraq - other than funnelling money to Hussein that is. The Middle East has been a disaster for a long long time - it's going to take a lot more than just a couple of years to turn things around.

So tell me - what has the great UN done in the Middle East? What peace have they accomplished there? I'd like to see the wars they have stopped - did they stop the Rwanda slaughter? Did they stay after the US left Somalia to finish their job? NO - they didn't.

Thats not the question...

You said that you bring democracy peacefully. And that the Mid East are waiting for you to bring it. Are they? Well?

Oh, and the "useless UN", got you out of more than a few tight spots in the Cold War. Cuban missle crisis, anyone? Oh yeah... The UN is useless

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yes - there are countries we have brought democracy to peacefully. Australia came to the US to learn about the Constitution and modeled theirs after ours.

And actually Australia got their model for democracy, from Britian, you remember... their colonizers? The Aussie "revolution" was a simple change of constitutions. Oz's one is basically a copy of theirs. America forming Australian democracy....Hmmmm.