|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
01-09-2002, 06:30 PM | #41 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Bropous, you are quite a whetting stone yourself.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
01-09-2002, 07:23 PM | #42 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bree
Posts: 148
|
I had always thought of Melkor and Sauron losing power over time because to make their weapons powerful they invested some of their own strength in the creature or weapon they were creating. The more times this was done the more power the Ainur would lose and become more and more bound to the physical world.
|
01-10-2002, 02:02 AM | #43 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Welcome Arete, welcome Blackadder. I don't have anything else to say, so I won't say it.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
01-10-2002, 02:01 PM | #44 | ||
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22
|
Quote:
Quote:
Or have i got that completely wrong?
__________________
"There are no turtles anywhere (except normal ones)" |
||
01-10-2002, 06:37 PM | #45 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Yes, that is correct.
Although, in melkor's case, he invested himself in the world at large, rather than a number of smaller objects. When power is placed into an object or being, it becomes 'tied' to the enchanter. Sauron an dht ering is the classic, extreme, example. Although dragons, orcs, and [to a much lesser degree] even evil men are shown ot be tied to the dark lords who invest power in controlling them.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
01-11-2002, 03:39 PM | #46 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 608
|
At the field of Cormallen the orcs etc. lost their will when Sauron was destroyed.
|
01-11-2002, 06:55 PM | #47 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Yes.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
01-14-2002, 01:34 AM | #48 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
|
Quote:
Glorfindel's battle with the Balrog is not documented in any text relevant to The Lord of the Rings, but given the assumption (Tolkien made) that he did kill a Balrog in the First Age, he should have been able to do it again under similar circumstances in the Third Age. In fact, in one of his last writings, Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel, after he was released from Mandos, was more powerful than he had been in his first life. He became more like one of the Maiar. |
|
01-14-2002, 01:39 AM | #49 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
But Tolkien also said in that Last Writings text you're alluding to that his battle with the Balrog may need revision. What he had in mind I don't know (obviously), but maybe Glorfindel wouldn't have fought the Balrog all alone. For a while now I've envisioned Glorfindel and a handful of Eagles holding the pass against the demon.
Or maybe he only meant the battle should have been extended several days, the Balrog should look like the one from the LotR, and there should be magic in there, I don't know.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
01-14-2002, 01:50 AM | #50 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
|
Quote:
Whether Glorfindel led an army against the Balrog, or simply tumbled over a cliff with it, he would still have been instrumental in its death. |
|
01-14-2002, 05:09 PM | #51 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bree
Posts: 148
|
Quote:
|
|
01-14-2002, 07:18 PM | #52 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New York State
Posts: 309
|
If memory serves, Sauron had nothing at all to do with the Three. In fact, he never even saw them.
__________________
FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) |
01-15-2002, 05:21 AM | #53 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 608
|
No. Sauron never knew about the making of the three elven rings until they were finished, and he never saw or touched them.
|
01-15-2002, 03:42 PM | #54 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 22
|
Quote:
__________________
"There are no turtles anywhere (except normal ones)" |
|
01-15-2002, 04:58 PM | #55 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dorset
Posts: 608
|
Power according to stature, but the rings had their own different effects. An elf bearing Nenya would gain a different skill to the same elf bearing Narya, but would gain the same amount of 'power' at that skill. Vilya is maybe a different theory as it was the greatest of the elf rings, so presumably added more power.
|
01-16-2002, 07:38 PM | #56 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
Posts: 637
|
As far as I remember there was another elf that killed a balrog (Gotmog the captain of Morgoth’s guard) Ecthelion of the Fountain, captain of Gondolin’s armies. I don’t remember if this was revised but I don’t think so. Personally I doubt that the sacrifices of Glorfindel and Ecthelion would have been discarded, they are quite powerful in the story, specially with the revised balrogs in it.
__________________
**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
01-16-2002, 08:46 PM | #57 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
|
RE
So then...Glorfindel's battle with the Balrog probably would have held up
Am I right in assuming that Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog was entirely made up by Christopher Tolkien? I would guess that if Tolkien had lived long enough to complete The Silmarillion, Gothmog would have met his end in the War of Wrath.
__________________
Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. |
01-16-2002, 10:06 PM | #58 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
|
Re: RE
Quote:
The whole attack on Gondolin is therefore based on the outdated Book of Lost Tales material. Wherever Christopher could update the facts through comparison with other texts, he did so. But he had to make a lot of editorial decisions. A similar process was required for "Of Maeglin" and "The Ruin of Doriath" (and there was virtually no narrative for the "Ruin of Doriath" which Christopher could hope to incorporate -- he had only a few rough notes his father had left and snippets from various other texts). |
|
01-17-2002, 12:22 AM | #59 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bree
Posts: 148
|
Quote:
|
|
01-17-2002, 12:33 AM | #60 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
|
Quote:
In "The Council of Elrond", Elrond tells the others present that "those who made [the Rings] did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained." However, he precedes that statement with: "The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power." It has often been inferred by many people that Elrond went on to describe powers which were unique to the Three. But what made the Three unique, in my opinion, was the fact they were not associated with invisibility and invisible things and that Tolkien described them (in Letter 131) as "Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely [made of the Elves' own imagination], and directed to the preservation of beauty". This last statement implies to me that Tolkien meant all the Rings were intended to slow or prevent decay (the effects of Time), but that the Three were extremely powerful and were dedicated toward the preservation of specific things which the Elven peoples appreciated. That is, I think the Three were more refined than the Seven or the Nine in their powers of preservation. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
balrogs | den | Middle Earth | 22 | 10-30-2003 08:10 PM |
Powerful creatures of ME | Jonathan | Middle Earth | 62 | 04-20-2003 12:02 PM |
Was Frodo really a "hero" in the end? | stormcrow | Lord of the Rings Books | 29 | 09-23-2001 09:52 PM |
Dragons vs Balrogs | easterlinge | The Silmarillion | 61 | 05-28-2001 01:17 AM |
The nature of Balrogs | Captain Stern | The Silmarillion | 17 | 02-26-2001 10:01 AM |