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#41 |
Sapling
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2
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It is a regrettable event that happened over in Iraq. Regrettable and wrong. There is absolutely no doubt about that, but like many have pointed out, it is not a representation of the entirety of the armed forces over in Iraq.
These were 6 soldiers who thought they'd get a good laugh at the Iraqi's everyones been killed by, and to humiliate them for their own twisted reasons. It is a wonderful redeeming fact that their own troopmates turned them in. Those soldiers who stood up to 6 others that they had lived and fought with is commendable and they should be praised and recognized. The one soldier claimed he didn't have training, true, but this was a cop out and an excuse. Ridiculous on all accounts considering his job. To the young lady who feels there is no need to have patriotism in ones country, or doesn't feel proud of where she lives, I think that's very sad that you can't count your blessings (so to speak) to be living in a country with Womens Rights and tons of other laws to 'level the playing field' for all kinds of people. With freedom of speech, to say that you don't love America although you are American. Personally I think that being un-patriotic is a fad like wearing those gay hankercheifs on your head was a few years ago. It's cool now, but who knows what will be 'cool' tomorrow. |
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#42 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Merry old England
Posts: 413
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I am somewhat disappointed to see the way this thread is going. My thread was, as I have stated, not to pin the blame on America or the American military but merely do discuss what an atrocity this was and how best to deal with it so can we not turn this into another debate on how maligned and ill-treated America is. Thanks.
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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#43 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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Obviously these people are a tiny fraction of the soldiers and Marines in Iraq, and don't represent the vast majority.
OTOH, I don't think that it's only these six rotten apples who just happened to be in the same barrel. If you look at the pictures, taken at different times and in different locations, these are not people who feel that they have anything to hide- no hoods, no averted faces- big happy smiles, posing for the cameras. That's not the attitude of rogue elements who are worried about their superiors discovering their excesses. When you add in that they were being supervised by private contractors, even more questions are raised Quote:
The presence of almost 20,000 armed private contractors- basically mercenaries- who are not under military discipline is becoming a serious problem, but this case especially so. What were these guys doing in a military-run prison? Is it precisely because they do not operate under the military code of conduct?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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#44 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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These pictures are also going to have a huge negative effect in Iraq and the Moslem world in general .
(And, yes, acknowledged that it's extremely hypocritical, when most of their own governments are much worse) Already according to the latest Gallup poll, most Iraqis want the Coalition troops out, Quote:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ll-cover_x.htm and , of course, before these pictures. Want to bet that those negatives have jumped another 10%? Also, in the non-Kurdish areas, 50% of the population say it's okay to attack American troops- again, before Fallijah, Najaf, and the prison pictures. Plus, now Fallujah is being turned over to a Republican Guard General who was an aide to 'Chemical Ali' in the 90s, who walked into the city in his old uniform to cheers, and raised the 'old' Iraqi flag. The Shi'ites in Najaf who were attacking al-Sadr were so furious at this 're-Baathification' that they have now joined demonstrations alongside the Mahdi Army. And let's not forget that the Brits have their own torture scandal going along , too.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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#45 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
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#46 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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#47 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Examples of horrific and atrocious behavior:
Killing people, dragging their bodies through the street, setting them on fire and hanging the corpses on a bridge; then dancing around them and their vehicle. Somehow this puts things into perspective for me. ![]()
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 05-01-2004 at 12:10 PM. |
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#48 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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my dear spock. language again. be careful not to confuse justification with perspective. wrong is wrong.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#49 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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#50 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
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Quote:
And another thing-these peope, the soldiers, are IN THE MIDST OF CHAOS, alot of them are going to go nuts.
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#51 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#52 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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well when we trumpet oursleves as the height of sophisticated highest order moraility we set ourselves up for a long fall when we occasionaly dont meet up to these standards which we of course expect other "lesser" countries to recognize us as having.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#53 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Are you saying that because the US prides itself on its sophistication and morallity, that it is automatically held to a higher standard and therefore when a few of its people act like idiots and do a horrific deed, then the American people deserve to be looked at as idiots and barbarians with them? But because the Iraqis are not as sophisticated and moral, then barbarism is acceptable in the worlds eyes?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#54 |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
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I've been thinking on where the blame lies for this... abomination. The criminals doing the torture are clearly more than one screw loose (Who takes PICTURES that are so incriminating?) and should be locked up. I would say the people who really deserve to be chastized are the superior officers one and two levels above them (I know nothing about the structure of the military) who probably had an idea of what was going on but didnt' make an effort to stop it.
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
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#55 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#56 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Merry old England
Posts: 413
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Quote:
Brigadier-General, Major-General Lieutenant-General General Her Majesty's Field Marshal Whereas I thought you used the star system?
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Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. |
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#57 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Quote:
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#58 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#59 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#60 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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