Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
So, the fact that there may be hundreds more abuses that were NOT attended by a cameraman, is ignorant?? It is ignorant to claim a point is ignorant, as opposed to actually arguing the point...

Saying that there may be more abuses shows that your use of the word fact is misplaced. Your disgusting remark was ignorant and does not discuss any point, but only serves to show your feelings toward America, and not the actual outrage of the actual incodents being discussed.

Oh lighten up Cirdan, I was bloody being sarcastic. It feels "good" to make points against the Americans who are defending the undefendable. doesn't anyone bother to note the Smilies anymore?

There isn't one American in this thread or on this board that has defended the actions of these soldiers. so before you decide to make sarcastic sick statements vented toward Americans, I suggest you read what others have posted before you spout off your little self fulfilling remarks.

[QueenAnnesLace]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
So, the fact that there may be hundreds more abuses that were NOT attended by a cameraman, is ignorant?? It is ignorant to claim a point is ignorant, as opposed to actually arguing the point...

'may' be hundreds more abuses???When they say that there "may" be men on Mars do we really stew over it?Its as if you would just love it if there were.(One more notch on the anti american headboard) Using the word "may" is as broad as saying "if".Until you know for a "fact" that this is actually happening maybe you should refrain from making such spectulation.Stick to the facts,I realize this may be hard for you,considering you wouldn't have anything to talk about.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
'may' be hundreds more abuses???When they say that there "may" be men on Mars do we really stew over it?Its as if you would just love it if there were.(One more notch on the anti american headboard) Using the word "may" is as broad as saying "if".Until you know for a "fact" that this is actually happening maybe you should refrain from making such spectulation.Stick to the facts,I realize this may be hard for you,considering you wouldn't have anything to talk about.

i agree on the idea of trying to stay realistic... that said, 'the facts' can be very hard to discern... if there weren't pictures, i wonder how many people would argue that it was all made up, or at best, terribly exaggerated

i heard a report this morning about the red cross speaking with high-level military officials over their concerns as early as november of last year... but they were not really taken seriously until an american soldier blew the whistle two months later

the issue is important enough that we should assume the worst and work out the facts, as opposed to the other way around

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i don't need to defend the US... i know we are one of the most free and just countries in the world... i just think that the current administration is acting in many ways that do not reflect those very pillars our country stands on

Id like to nominate this post for post of the year. Well spoken crystal clear reasoning. And I admire a guy who can always keep a level head and respond with rational basic common sense even on an issue that engenders such heated passion. And without ever becoming defensive, showing obvious bias, using petty abusive commentary or letting anger effect his responses at all like some people here (myself included) have a habit of doing.

[Spock]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Id like to nominate this post for post of the year. Well spoken crystal clear reasoning. And I admire a guy who can always keep a level head and respond with rational basic common sense even on an issue that engenders such heated passion. And without ever becoming defensive, showing obvious bias, using petty abusive commentary or letting anger effect his responses at all like some people here (myself included) have a habit of doing.

Oh, does this mean you're going to emulate him?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Id like to nominate this post for post of the year. Well spoken crystal clear reasoning. And I admire a guy who can always keep a level head and respond with rational basic common sense even on an issue that engenders such heated passion. And without ever becoming defensive, showing obvious bias, using petty abusive commentary or letting anger effect his responses at all like some people here (myself included) have a habit of doing.

thanks IR, but you should see some of them before i preview them two or three times

[Spock]

Don't be stupid, be a smarty. Come and join the Nazi party.
..The Producers...


Franz Liebkind: I am the author. You are the audience. I outrank you!




.....don't panic, I'm a Zionist.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Spock
Oh, does this mean you're going to emulate him?

we should shouldnt we. But then without the likes of us to spout off uncivily hed have no measure to judge himself on.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i did read your first post JD and all of the others... tell me why you think the parts that i bolded were necessary... it seems to me that you spent a lot more time justifying and defending than you did condemning (and gave way to much weight to the 'french news')

The reason why I spent tiem on Frenc news was because I had just gotten finished watching their ONE SIDED reporting. That is why. I don't think I need to justify myself to you though. Especially considering that was ONLY ONE of many posts where I condemned the abuses. But you accused me of not caring at all and just shrugging it off - that to me indicates that you either didn't bother reading my posts or don't care what I had to say in them.

i don't need to defend the US... i know we are one of the most free and just countries in the world... i just think that the current administration is acting in many ways that do not reflect those very pillars our country stands on

That is your option as to whether you want to stick up for America or not - I choose to stand by my country. Wiuth all the negative stuff - which yuou have no problem stating - some people need to stand up and remind people of certain facts.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Oh lighten up Cirdan, I was bloody being sarcastic. It feels "good" to make points against the Americans who are defending the undefendable. doesn't anyone bother to note the Smilies anymore?

(note that one), you to QAL.

You know what - there is NO ONE here defending their actions. NO ONE. But from an obvious American hater - which I think with your corrent posts - everyone can now agree that is the absolute case - you just want to twist what people say and make light of a very serious situation. I find your behavior disgusting and as Cirdan said - you are no better than the abusers in that prison - because you are taking joy out of all this.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Valandil
I agree. I saw that it was the maximum sentence... so I wonder what he was charged with and if a more serious charge could have been brought. Some of those detainees at the prison might have been there as long (have they - I don't even know how long they've been there... any since the time of the war last spring?).

It also said he was reduced three steps to the lowest rank and discharged from the Army.

Well the thing is too - that soldier didn't have direct involvement. He witnessed them though. Some people said that since he was acting as a witness and everything - they are very surprised that he got that harsh a sentence - but that harsher sentences might be coming to the other solidiers. This is only one step in the military courts - other convictions can carry harsher punishments.

As jenkins said above... some harsh actions would demonstrate to the world that we're serious about ending this. Any appearance of 'letting someone off easy' will send a bad message. It's unfortunate all around.

I don't think anyone is getting off easy - nor will they. This is the first step only in the process.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
I simply asked why you want to be here when it seems you have nothing good to say about the U.S.

Im sorry. I didn’t realize in a thread SPECIFICALLY about some saddening things done by Americans that I should be praising America. And heaven forbid that I should be acknowledging that we did some bad things. Shall I end each post with God Bless America? Where do you get off even bringing up the question of why am I an American in a thread like this exactly? I just happen not to be an apologist and don’t see why I should be taken to task for commenting on the misdeeds of some Americans in a thread ABOUT that. If there are things I am proud of about Americans I don’t hesitate to make them known. If there are things Im NOT proud of about Americans I wont hold back on those either. Can you say that?

I took the liberty of going through my posts on here regarding the subject and in my opinion I couldn’t find anything that would qualify me for American hating. Heres some examples:

“But in my opinion this IS an anomaly and not the norm.” – Insidious Rex

“Again, I think what we saw in Iraq was NOT the norm. But it DOES happen.” – Insidious Rex

“we need to cringe and deal with the hypocripsy involved when something like this happens. and not make excuses.” – Insidious Rex

“no need to say we should be condeming others instead. we simply need to say hey we messed up (yes "we" even though it was a hand full of renegades that certainly DIDNT reflect the thinking of all americans as Ive stated several times now).” – Insidious Rex

“Its ok to say WE #&$@ed UP once in a while. Its called owning up to ones actions. And a true patriot will do that. And will never make an excuse or inject it with a ‘but they do it too!’ argument.” – Insidious Rex

“All you gotta say is we screwed up. We’ll do our best to fix it. And maybe even ‘Sorry’.” – Insidious Rex

etc.. etc…

Now perhaps you view these kinds of mildly critical and straight forward HONEST comments as traitorous but I sure don’t. So if you do then tell me why you think that. Is saying hey this was bad but this DOESN’T represent America really bashing America and showing that I don’t want to live here? Im really rather confused where you make that connection. And again if you simply mean that making a negative comment about your administration is enough to warrant such a silly question then Id certainly have to disagree with you there and I would once again refer you to the comments of Benjamin Franklin and others who would also disagree with you.

By the way the first soldier in the Iraqi prison abuse case has been sentenced to a year in prison.Seems like a slap on wrist to me.

I think Civits conviction was part of a deal he made to inform on others who actually were involved directly in the abuse. From what I understand, Civits never actually did anything beyond take the pictures and not report the abuses so that’s why his sentencing was limited.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Beor
Ru, that is another thing that pisses me off. And, sorry, JD, but they probably wont get punished. Like they say, **** rolls downhill,....[/clip]and they have seriously damaged everything we came down here to do.

They have already rolled one guy to testafy against the others for a plea bargain. My guess is he'll be used to contain the indictments. Meanwhile Rumsfeld testafied yesterday that he "couldn't recall" reading any reports about increasing pressure to get intelligence.

To everyone, thanks for the support, and Lizra, I know I look at it darkly, but when something pisses me off, I tend to go a bit overboard. You should have seen the post that got deleted.

We support you even though most of us have little idea of the horrific circumstances of there. It won't be like Vietnam where the soldiers were blamed for everything that goes wrong (except the abusers, of course). Back then the ideas like incentives for body counts that incited events like MyLai repelled most people back home. I think most of our troops have shown exemplary conduct under the circumstances. It's the circumstances I dislike
and the fact hat your comrades may be dying for poor reasons.

Oh. and please don't rip out any american's throats. That might look, well... kind of bad.

Maybe Fenir doesn't get that this is very serious to Americans and the truth is more important than "scoring point". This is definitely no game, (okay, maybe like russian roulette is a game - but still not funny).

And we all ahve to accept the possibility that they didn't film every act of abuse that did occur. But that idea too just makes me ill.

Keep the Faith Beor. It's a complex situation your in there, to say the very least.

And keep your head down.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Spock
Don't be stupid, be a smarty. Come and join the Nazi party.
..The Producers...


Franz Liebkind: I am the author. You are the audience. I outrank you!




.....don't panic, I'm a Zionist.

"Wait a minute! This is a very big decision. It might effect the course of my entire life. I shall have to think about it... I'll do it." ~ Roger De Bris

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That is your option as to whether you want to stick up for America or not - I choose to stand by my country. Wiuth all the negative stuff - which yuou have no problem stating - some people need to stand up and remind people of certain facts.

after 9/11 bush fostered the idea that you are either with us or against us... some people who use to be a part of his administration say he is the type of person that you only tell things he wants to hear

i choose to stand by the ideals of my country, which includes criticising its leaders... as i said earlier, i think our strength is not that we are perfect, but that we have the best system for dealing with the imperfections that exist in every social/political system... an open and honest system

i see the current administration as trying to change this into one of where the president says 'don't worry about the details, just trust that we will always act in the best interest of the country'

i don't buy this, and i know many americans who agree with me

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
after 9/11 bush fostered the idea that you are either with us or against us... some people who use to be a part of his administration say he is the type of person that you only tell things he wants to hear

So who are "some" of these people? the people who just happen to have books coming out and want to make money?

The statement regarding you are either with us or against us was directed at countries supporting terrorism and Middle Eastern countries such as Pakistan. People like to twist that around a lot.

i choose to stand by the ideals of my country, which includes criticising its leaders... as i said earlier, i think our strength is not that we are perfect, but that we have the best system for dealing with the imperfections that exist in every social/political system... an open and honest system

i see the current administration as trying to change this into one of where the president says 'don't worry about the details, just trust that we will always act in the best interest of the country'

i don't buy this, and i know many americans who agree with me

And if you knew me - you would know that I routinely criticize Bush - such as on the environment, I'm not happy with some proposed rollbacks that he has suggested. However, I just disagree with what a lot of people are criticising him for here on entmoot. I also think that the world changed on 9/11 and we are at war - a war we did not start but we had better finish and we had better win. Leaving our security in the hands of the UN or Europe or anyone else is NOT an option and that's what people want us to do.

And I'm sure you know many people who agree with you. I;'m sure they share your same pollitical views - isn't that a new concept. People having friends who share their political views.

[Mercutio]

I think Jerseydevil deserves a round of applause for single-handedly (or almost single-handedly, there are some others in here, too) defending the United States and the Bush administration. Way to go JD!

*round of applause echoes through the...um...internet*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I think Jerseydevil deserves a round of applause for single-handedly (or almost single-handedly, there are some others in here, too) defending the United States and the Bush administration. Way to go JD!

*round of applause echoes through the...um...internet*

Thank you Mercutio. I'm just doing it because I'm tired of the attitude that America does nothing right and the mentality of "blame America". Brown Jenkins doesn't have to shwo his support for America at all if he doesn't want, but he only seems to have a limitless supply of contempt and criticism as do many others here.

People instead of waiting for the investigations to be carried out want to pass judgement. Such statements like "if it happens again it'll just be covered up". Right away there are always accusations of a cover-up - even before the facts are out. Everything floating around is rumor and people want to believe anything negative.

[Mercutio]

whoops. double post. maybe I'll think of something to write here instead...



oh yeah. People mentioned liking American culture (when they were accused of being anti-American)

of all the things we have to export---our culture.
*groan*

[BeardofPants]

In a similar vein, I think Brown Jenkins, Insidious Rex, and Cirdan all need rounds of applause for their objectivity, and well enunciated posts.