Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Oh yeah - right. But what YOU are saying isn't the same thing. Yeah it IS your responsibility for YOUR subordinates. But you aren't talking about the DIRECT command - you are referring to Rumsfeld. Which basically means that you feel that if YOUR people **** up - that you should get fired and then the CEO should also be fired.

The thing is - the person in charge of the group of soldiers is ALSO currently in trouble - even though they may not have had a direct role. If you are going to use a comparison - at least make it correspond to your opinion - which is that you think that RUMSFELD should pay - which as I said is similarl to a mistake of your subordinates costing the CEO his job. I'd like to see if you think that should happen in your business or if you think it would.

busy week at work so i've missed all the good stuff

it's a matter of the degree of the mistake... if it was a screw up that cost us a few grand, no one would get fired... if it was one that cost us a whole host of our major customers, the CEO might have to take the bullet... it's as much about perception as it is about doing something that truely remedies the situation

rumsfeld stepping down, or even a major army official, would tell the world more than any words that this is extremely important to us

it is my impression, and tell me if i'm wrong, that it makes absolutely no difference to you what the world thinks about us... i, on the other hand, think it makes all the difference... there will be terrorists no matter what we do, they have existed for as long as mankind has... but i believe we can change the numbers of them from 100,000 to 10,000 or less if we treat those around the world as we treat those in our own country

what would your reaction be if this same thing had happened in a prison in the US with US citizens?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Okay. Well, I think QAL was just asking IR a question that he took exception to. I think she wanted a real answer, not an outburst. She didn't say that anyone should leave the country because they don't support one thing or another. Here and in the past IR has expressed times of disatisfaction with the US and its policies. I think QAL was just asking, why would you want to stay here if you are so upset with things. That's not the same as saying 'get out if you don't like it.'

People, you need to perhaps read posts a little more carefully.

Its patently ridiculous for one american to say to another american why are you here if you dont agree with government policies. I mean the hypocrisy. When this is a fascist state that can become a useful point of view. Until then its completely missing the point of what our country stands for. You DO know you can love your country and disagree with the way its being run right? You DO know it was Benjamin Franklin who said "A patriot must always be prepared to defend his country from its government". And that it was Daniel Ellsburg a decorated military veteran said "If my greatest act of patriotism is treason, then so be it". Being a patriot is NOT about blindly following what the president tells you and supporting him no matter what. It is constantly keeping your government in line by being critical of it at all levels.

And its a serious pet peeve of mine when people pull that if you dont like it then get out attitude because its a cop out and its completely disingenuous and its ignoring whatever point is being discussed. So If you dont want yer hand bit dont slap the dog in the face I say.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
busy week at work so i've missed all the good stuff

it's a matter of the degree of the mistake... if it was a screw up that cost us a few grand, no one would get fired... if it was one that cost us a whole host of our major customers, the CEO might have to take the bullet... it's as much about perception as it is about doing something that truely remedies the situation

The screw up would be very serious and COMPANY WIDE. it wopuld not just be one branch of the company - one department or even one division. If it was a division of a company - then the division head would be fired or replaced - not the CEO. The CEO is only fired when it is company wide.

rumsfeld stepping down, or even a major army official, would tell the world more than any words that this is extremely important to us

So what your view is is give them rumsfeld's head on a platter - even if he didn't know anything or have any involvement in it. I disagree. I think that we have to let the investigation play out - we have the Senate hearings, we have court martials - we are doing things about it. Whether world feels it is enough isn't up to them. It shows them how democracy works.

You just want to hand them someone - anyone - preferably Bush or Rumsfeld. As if that will change anything in bin Ladin's mind or his militants.

it is my impression, and tell me if i'm wrong, that it makes absolutely no difference to you what the world thinks about us... i, on the other hand, think it makes all the difference...

Well then let me tell you that you are wrong. I just don't think America should be ruled by just what other countries think. There is a difference. if you bother to look at my first posts - you will see that I feel that these soldiers have severly jeopardised the war in Iraq as well as on terrorism and that is why I call for them to be tried for treason. I am outraged - because it does destroy ALL the hard work we have been trying to do. As it says Excalibur - "lifetimes to build - moments to ruin". That is the problem. Do you know how MUCH we have been building over there? How many schools? Any of the MULITPLE good things and beneficial things we have been doing over there? Do you even bother to find out?

[edit] Before you go off that I don't care about the iraqis - I do. I think the way they were treated was terrible. I think it was outrageous. I think the people RESPONSIBLE should pay. I"m just not looking for scapegoats though.

there will be terrorists no matter what we do, they have existed for as long as mankind has... but i believe we can change the numbers of them from 100,000 to 10,000 or less if we treat those around the world as we treat those in our own country

So who is doing the mistreating? So far it is a FEW people. You get it - a few. CBS PUT those pictures on the air - that was a HUGE mistake in my opinion. The situation was being dealt with. They and those soldiers handed Al Qaeda their next recruitment video.

what would your reaction be if this same thing had happened in a prison in the US with US citizens?

I believe - now tell me if I'm wrong - the SAME ****ing reaction it has gotten on this thread and in the US in general - OUTRAGE!! And there has been outrage - from me - friom SGH and everyone else. We are NOT condoning what was done - but you refuse to see that. Just becuase we will not condemn the WHOLE military or run saying the war is failure or the Bush is at fault - you don't want accept are feeling.

This is my first post...

I agree. It's an outrage. The thing that IS NOT being reported in the world media though is that the people were TURNED in by fellow officers and that they are being being court maritial and punished under military law. I watched it on French News last night and they used the episode basicallly to American Bash. 6 people out of 150,000 personnel in Iraq and the US gets looked down on for this - as if it's normal? They were turned in by their FELLOW officers - but no one is talking about them. Why not ? Why not talk about the good soldiers too who put the end to this brutality? Why not talk about the fact that the US government and military is taking very strong action against them?

People are outraged by it here - but going by the French News and other world news sources - it seems to be being used as just pure American bashing.

I'm not really happy with CBS publishing those photos - it's all over arab news - it feeds into the hate of America over there and puts our troops in danger. It wasn't like nothing was being done against the soldiers responsible - it's not like it wasn't being discussed and reported on for a month. There is such thing as RESPONSIBLE reporting and I don't think this is an example of that. When the results of reporting can put people's lives in danger - some other action has to be taken.

During the Irananian Hostage situation there was a reporter that knew about the secret plan to rescue the hostages - he sat on it - because he knew and was convinced that if they reported it - it would get people killed. This is no different. It feeds into Bin Ladin's cause. Right now I feel those soldiers should be executed for treason against the United States or at the very least get life imprisonment. I personally don't care at all whether they were taught how to handle prisoners, anyone with halfg a brain knows that you don't do the things they did.

I want everyone to think about Beor - and ask yourself if you think that he is like that. Does this reflect on him? Because it seems the way this is being reported around the world that they want this to be an "all the US army is like this" thing.

One other thing - we do not thing that "the US army is souless" - like the french news claimed we did last night. We think that these particular soldiers were barbarians - but is NOT representive of the US army as a whole. There are bad people in every industry and the army is no different.

Maybe if you could remember things I posted better you wouldn't be questioning if I care what the world thinks of us - or if I am outraged by this. But there is my first post for you to read.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
And its a serious pet peeve of mine when people pull that if you dont like it then get out attitude because its a cop out and its completely disingenuous and its ignoring whatever point is being discussed. So If you dont want yer hand bit dont slap the dog in the face I say.

My pet peeve is that you and others would be more than happy to turn America's welfare over to the UN or rely on such countries as France. You would hand over our soverienty and have us go to them and ask them for permission every time we want to do something. Do you not realize that the ONLY time they will give permission is when it is in THEIR own best interest and not necessarily in America's? Why do you think they had no problem with us going into Bosnia.

With the underhanded deals that the UN had going on with Iraq - no wonder they didn't want us going in there. They had a lucrative business going on with Iraq and oil for food program. Too bad everyone wants to ignore that scandal.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes.

whoohoo!!!

Edit... beddy-bye time.. I'll do it tomorrow.

Edity-edit... oh, yeah... one more thing: Bush sucks!

*runs away*

[Ultimatejoe]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
With the underhanded deals that the UN had going on with Iraq - no wonder they didn't want us going in there. They had a lucrative business going on with Iraq and oil for food program. Too bad everyone wants to ignore that scandal.

You must have really missed the boat on the Oil-For-Aid scandal JD. Corrupt bureaucrats and administrators inside a specific branch of the UN were the ones funnelling bribes; and private corporations were receiving them. Just as you are so adamant that we wait for evidence that the situation in Iraq is widespread (or not), how can you keep a straight face and make the same kind of premature judgement about the U.N.?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
You must have really missed the boat on the Oil-For-Aid scandal JD. Corrupt bureaucrats and administrators inside a specific branch of the UN were the ones funnelling bribes; and private corporations were receiving them. Just as you are so adamant that we wait for evidence that the situation in Iraq is widespread (or not), how can you keep a straight face and make the same kind of premature judgement about the U.N.?

NO - I didn't miss the boat. But I was making a point as to how fast people criticise and pass judgement on the US. Thanks for pointing out my point so clearly for everyone though.

I'm asking why if people are soquick to pass judgement on the US and make snide comments about the investigation - why don't they have the same attitude about the UN.

It was UN beaurocarts - isn't that a bit higher than a few soldiers by the way? Anyway - they are all beaurocrats - that's why the UN just sends out memos and reports and never really does anything. It's also why such countries as Iraq and Libya get elected to such posts as Chairman of the Disarmament Committee and the Chairmain of the Human Rights Committee respectively. Now that's ironic.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Just to actually do what a moderator says , I will come back to the subject.

I take serious issue with the argument that the abuses were "an isolated incident", and not further wide spread. How do we know? Perhaps at the other RAPE AND TORTURE sessions, the US soldiers left their cameras at home???? Hmmmmm???

God, that felt goooooood.

[Janny]

Fenir! Read that again and realise what you're saying. You're enjoying the 'rape and torture' purely for the opportunity it affords you to attack the Americans. I thought the whole anti-American thing was supposed to be a moral stand.
I thought those of us who believe that this shouldn't undermine the good work of soldiers and believe that an effort to bring freedom to a oppressed people is right were the ones making our case on ludicrous grounds.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Just to actually do what a moderator says , I will come back to the subject.

I take serious issue with the argument that the abuses were "an isolated incident", and not further wide spread. How do we know? Perhaps at the other RAPE AND TORTURE sessions, the US soldiers left their cameras at home???? Hmmmmm???

God, that felt goooooood.

I find that a pretty condescensing post. Do you think rape and torture are such laughing matters, do you?

I'd leave the misplaced smileys away if I were you.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I find that a pretty condescensing post. Do you think rape and torture are such laughing matters, do you?

I'd leave the misplaced smileys away if I were you.

Of course he does - because all it for him is a way of expressing his anti-americanism. He doesn't care about the Iraqis - he just wants things to give fuel to his hatred and contempt for Americans. He's been laughing and making jokes about it throughout the thread.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Just to actually do what a moderator says , I will come back to the subject.

I take serious issue with the argument that the abuses were "an isolated incident", and not further wide spread. How do we know? Perhaps at the other RAPE AND TORTURE sessions, the US soldiers left their cameras at home???? Hmmmmm???

God, that felt goooooood.

I'm glad you're enjoying yourself, because your remarks are ignorrant, and out of line.

[brownjenkins]

i did read your first post JD and all of the others... tell me why you think the parts that i bolded were necessary... it seems to me that you spent a lot more time justifying and defending than you did condemning (and gave way to much weight to the 'french news')

i don't need to defend the US... i know we are one of the most free and just countries in the world... i just think that the current administration is acting in many ways that do not reflect those very pillars our country stands on

I agree. It's an outrage. The thing that IS NOT being reported in the world media though is that the people were TURNED in by fellow officers and that they are being being court maritial and punished under military law. I watched it on French News last night and they used the episode basicallly to American Bash. 6 people out of 150,000 personnel in Iraq and the US gets looked down on for this - as if it's normal? They were turned in by their FELLOW officers - but no one is talking about them. Why not ? Why not talk about the good soldiers too who put the end to this brutality? Why not talk about the fact that the US government and military is taking very strong action against them?

People are outraged by it here - but going by the French News and other world news sources - it seems to be being used as just pure American bashing.

I'm not really happy with CBS publishing those photos - it's all over arab news - it feeds into the hate of America over there and puts our troops in danger. It wasn't like nothing was being done against the soldiers responsible - it's not like it wasn't being discussed and reported on for a month. There is such thing as RESPONSIBLE reporting and I don't think this is an example of that. When the results of reporting can put people's lives in danger - some other action has to be taken.

During the Irananian Hostage situation there was a reporter that knew about the secret plan to rescue the hostages - he sat on it - because he knew and was convinced that if they reported it - it would get people killed. This is no different. It feeds into Bin Ladin's cause. Right now I feel those soldiers should be executed for treason against the United States or at the very least get life imprisonment. I personally don't care at all whether they were taught how to handle prisoners, anyone with halfg a brain knows that you don't do the things they did.

I want everyone to think about Beor - and ask yourself if you think that he is like that. Does this reflect on him? Because it seems the way this is being reported around the world that they want this to be an "all the US army is like this" thing.

One other thing - we do not thing that "the US army is souless" - like the french news claimed we did last night. We think that these particular soldiers were barbarians - but is NOT representive of the US army as a whole. There are bad people in every industry and the army is no different.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Just to actually do what a moderator says , I will come back to the subject.

I take serious issue with the argument that the abuses were "an isolated incident", and not further wide spread. How do we know? Perhaps at the other RAPE AND TORTURE sessions, the US soldiers left their cameras at home???? Hmmmmm???

God, that felt goooooood.

Yep. I'm about as liberal as they come and that was pretty offensive.

How can anything about this make you feel good unless you have the same sort of hate in you that the abusers had?

[QueenAnnesLace]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Please spare me your "if you dare question our government then get the hell out" attitude. thats a sad reaction to my tongue in cheek commentary about the purpose of this occupation and frankly you know nothing of my personal views on my country or what i believe is right or not right. So keep your jingoistic preaching to yourself.

I never said anything about leaving the country or that you or anyone else could not question our government.I simply asked why you want to be here when it seems you have nothing good to say about the U.S.You can try to twist my words all day long but it was a question that I still have not got a response to.I have yet to see you say one good remark in regards to the country you live.So instead of evading the question just answer it.The Gaffer asked me a question and I gave him a reply without twisting his words.I just happen to be proud of the country that I call home.

By the way the first soldier in the Iraqi prison abuse case has been sentenced to a year in prison.Seems like a slap on wrist to me.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I'm glad you're enjoying yourself, because your remarks are ignorrant, and out of line.

So, the fact that there may be hundreds more abuses that were NOT attended by a cameraman, is ignorant?? It is ignorant to claim a point is ignorant, as opposed to actually arguing the point...

[QueenAnnesLace]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Just to actually do what a moderator says , I will come back to the subject.

I take serious issue with the argument that the abuses were "an isolated incident", and not further wide spread. How do we know? Perhaps at the other RAPE AND TORTURE sessions, the US soldiers left their cameras at home???? Hmmmmm???

God, that felt goooooood.

I can't believe you just said that.To make a joke on such a subject is just in horrifically bad taste.It only stands to show your anti american sentiment,and that you couldn't possibly take what is going on there very seriously at all.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Yep. I'm about as liberal as they come and that was pretty offensive.

How can anything about this make you feel good unless you have the same sort of hate in you that the abusers had?

Oh lighten up Cirdan, I was bloody being sarcastic. It feels "good" to make points against the Americans who are defending the undefendable. doesn't anyone bother to note the Smilies anymore?

(note that one), you to QAL.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
By the way the first soldier in the Iraqi prison abuse case has been sentenced to a year in prison.Seems like a slap on wrist to me.

I agree. I saw that it was the maximum sentence... so I wonder what he was charged with and if a more serious charge could have been brought. Some of those detainees at the prison might have been there as long (have they - I don't even know how long they've been there... any since the time of the war last spring?).

It also said he was reduced three steps to the lowest rank and discharged from the Army.

As jenkins said above... some harsh actions would demonstrate to the world that we're serious about ending this. Any appearance of 'letting someone off easy' will send a bad message. It's unfortunate all around.

[Beor]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Not to worry, Beor... this senator is only jumping on the bandwagon to put him/herself up, politically.

Yeah, I know, but it really pissed me off, I wanted to rip out his throat so he could no longer speak. Violent, I know, but hey.

We (the American people) KNOW it is not ALL of the soldiers... not even most... but a few [EDITED]. We (the American people) are not spitting on you or the others. However, we KNOW that something like this was either allowed by design... or allowed because someone above them was inept. Either way, he/she should be brought down. And ALL of them, military and contractors, higher-ups and or not, should be tried in a court of law... be it military or civilian... I don't care... but they (ALL OF THEM) have RUINED the American reputation for many years to come. As an American, that really PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!! But what pisses me off more, is that the higher-ups will not even be charged, I'm sure. How could Washington not know about any of this?

Ru, that is another thing that pisses me off. And, sorry, JD, but they probably wont get punished. Like they say, **** rolls downhill, and I honestly dont think that anything will happen to anyone above Battalion level, if not company level. And that is bull****. But another thing, it is possible that the higher leadership didn't know about it, slim, but possible, because there is alot that Joe can slip by his leaders (I know, I used to be joe, and now I am a leader), never know, they may have done it without the knowledge of their leaders. Still, it is one big crock of ****, and they have seriously damaged everything we came down here to do.

To everyone, thanks for the support, and Lizra, I know I look at it darkly, but when something pisses me off, I tend to go a bit overboard. You should have seen the post that got deleted.

Just to actually do what a moderator says , I will come back to the subject.

I take serious issue with the argument that the abuses were "an isolated incident", and not further wide spread. How do we know? Perhaps at the other RAPE AND TORTURE sessions, the US soldiers left their cameras at home???? Hmmmmm???

God, that felt goooooood.

Oh lighten up Cirdan, I was bloody being sarcastic. It feels "good" to make points against the Americans who are defending the undefendable. doesn't anyone bother to note the Smilies anymore?

(note that one), you to QAL.

When have I defended the undefendable, and its hard to smile when you pretty much suggested that all the American soldiers raped and tortured Iraqi prisioners, which, by the way, is an ignorant assumption. Another thing is that it must be pretty easy to throw insults and critisizem (spelling is not my strongest suite) at us when you are chilling behind your computer in Ireland or whatever. Does it ever occur to you that these "soldiers" that did this might actually be the exception to the norm? I sure as hell havent seen any rape or torture, and part of my company worked a detainee compound for about three months, without any rape or torture. Check yourself dude, because that was a pretty ingnorant thing to say.