05-18-2004, 11:30 AM | #481 | |||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
|
Quote:
Oh yeah, the poor republican congress had no control oveer the budget. :....( Quote:
Quote:
Oh and what sorts of people are those? I speak my own opinion and don't see this this as us and them like you. I think my views are different than theirs. Basically then anyone who dosagrees with you on anything would fit the bill. Yes, I absolutely speak of *my* opinions. Quote:
That's convenient. Torture is justifable to you but it wasn't approved because other than the CIA program at the prison employing these techniques last fall, and the fact that higher ups were aware of the abuse and dismissed it until it was bad publicity, they didn't RESORT to torture. (You said we but I'm sure you wefre still in NJ at the time.) Yes, no one can prove that everyone in the military was torturing people. Quote:
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 05-18-2004 at 12:59 PM. |
|||||
05-18-2004, 11:36 AM | #482 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 124
|
Quote:
|
|
05-18-2004, 11:43 AM | #483 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
in terms of responsibility, i manage a group of people... i expect them to do a good job, and keep the ones i know will do a good job... that said, if one of them makes a mistake that costs us a customer it is my responsibility, and i deal with the consequences... and if it seemed that the problem could have been prevented if i had better trained or better choosen the people under me, my own position might be in question... that's what leadership is all about... without it, the idea of responsibility ceases to exist
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
05-18-2004, 11:59 AM | #484 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-18-2004, 12:04 PM | #485 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 124
|
Quote:
|
|
05-18-2004, 12:07 PM | #486 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
WHen your commander-in-chief is on record as saying that the GC is irrelevant and/or anachronistic and your organisation employs an explicit policy of "softening up" (I'll use that Orwellian euphemism rather than the more prosaic "torture") then there's an in-built justification for stepping over the line. Which is exactly what these soldier are coming out with. All this has been discussed before on this thread... Let me ask you directly, QAL, do you think this is a war situation or not? |
|
05-18-2004, 12:08 PM | #487 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-18-2004, 12:18 PM | #488 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-18-2004, 12:31 PM | #489 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-18-2004 at 12:38 PM. |
||||
05-18-2004, 12:37 PM | #490 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
The thing is - the person in charge of the group of soldiers is ALSO currently in trouble - even though they may not have had a direct role. If you are going to use a comparison - at least make it correspond to your opinion - which is that you think that RUMSFELD should pay - which as I said is similarl to a mistake of your subordinates costing the CEO his job. I'd like to see if you think that should happen in your business or if you think it would.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-18-2004, 12:43 PM | #491 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Well, it's too late for that, they've already nabbed it. |
|
05-18-2004, 12:44 PM | #492 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
05-18-2004, 12:49 PM | #493 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 124
|
Quote:
|
|
05-18-2004, 12:49 PM | #494 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
BTW - I find it funny how with the US going to war it was ALL about oil - while with France, Germany and Russia who were KNOWN to have lucrative oil deals with Hussien concerning the oil wells and the oil - it wasn't about oil - it was about the morality of going in there. Screw that the people were being tortured and executed by him - but hell - France, Germany and Russia had no issue with oil right? What about signs - "No Appeasement for Oil" instead - because it's costing us a hell of a lot more than we are going to get from that oil any time soon.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-18-2004 at 12:55 PM. |
|
05-18-2004, 01:11 PM | #495 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
If you think I'm wasting my time finding references for you, you've got another thing coming.
The oil men are playing the long game; they remember the 1970s and they loathe the Saudis with a passion. Saddam's real crime was to start selling oil in Euros, potentially undermining the dollar. Nailing him not only gets it traded in dollars for US companies, but also gets you lot to throw billions of your tax dollars into Bush's cronies' retirement funds AND scares the hell out of the Saudis. And you run right out and start cheering for them! Ye gods. Stopping Saddam's torture was WAY down the list of arguments put up for the war. You, and Bush et al, know fine well that you would never have got public support for that without the WMD and War on Terror pretexts, both of which have been proven fallacious. OK, so you both agree that it IS a war. Now, the GC applies to OUR conduct in a war, not the other side's. It does not say "if the enemy hasn't signed up for it, then we all get to ignore it". So it applies to these people. Progress. But then, who is it a war against? By your own admission, it's an unknown foe. Such a war is a contradiction in terms. You cannot have a war against an abstraction. And that's your big mistake, IMO. By parading this "War on Terror" slogan all the time you create a justification for their actions. In war, almost anything goes as long as you win. You can nuke cities because it saves lives in the long run. Turn that around and it makes it infinitely easier for potential terrorists to justify killing innocent people. The only way to beat terrorists is to treat them as CRIMINALS. It's such a shame because after 9/11 the international community would have swung into line right behind the US if they had pursued an international solution to the problem. |
05-18-2004, 01:25 PM | #496 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
ADMINISTRATIVE WARNING- After observing some flamebaiting and personal attacks, and after receiving some PMs from members complaining about conduct in this thread, I am going to issue a final warning. I am not going to mention names, I am not going to argue with any of you about who is responsible. This is a loaded thread as many of the political threads at Entmoot are. You are at liberty to express your opinions and debate the topic in a civil, intelligent manner. You are not at liberty to FLAME, FLAMEBAIT, LAUNCH PERSONAL ATTACKS, or MAKE INSULTING REMARKS TO OTHERS Please observe the rules at the top of the General Messages forum. Any further violation of the rules will result in the closing of this thread, and possible bannings issued to those responsible. There will be no futher warnings before further action is taken. Do I make myself clear?
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
05-18-2004, 01:34 PM | #497 | ||||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
BTW - Hussein using Euro's is the most stupid argument I have heard yet. It's funny - bushles of Euro's weren't found in Iraq - BUT AMERICAN Dollars were. Quote:
As for both being proved fallacious - that isn't the case at all. There hasn't been a full inspection of Iraq yet and as I have said - Hussein didn't have doctor death in his government for medical reasons. You want to ignore the facts and ignore the past of what EVERYONE'S intelligence said and make it seem like it was Bush's intelligence information that was incorrect or flawed. First there is still fighting throughout Iraq - we haven't really been able to search the entire country - who knows - maybe Hussein had it trucked out - we don't know right now. But the WMD wasn't the only reason. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 05-18-2004 at 01:41 PM. |
||||||||
05-18-2004, 01:40 PM | #498 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 124
|
You know I don't like this war myself, or any war,or people no matter what country,religion,race etc. to be hurt or killed.It's too bad everyone can't agree and get along.That's a world that none of us will be seeing anytime soon.It takes a lot of sacrifice and understanding for any situation to come to a solution.The people we are against over there have done very horrible things and someone finally stepped up to the plate.
Everytime something goes bad in other countries and they can't help themselves,they ask the U.S. We have helped our allies in many different wars.But that doesn't seem to matter as long as it's not benefitting them. Everthing is not black and white.There is a very large gray area.That area is what seperates everyone,starts wars,and causes so much grief.Too bad you can't just wish it away. |
05-18-2004, 01:47 PM | #499 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Amazing - seems like we should have told Europe to go screw themselves when it came to the problems of Bosnia.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
05-18-2004, 02:07 PM | #500 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Trent University, Peterborough
Posts: 53
|
Quote:
__________________
"Is that anything like a cemetary? 'Cause I need to take a leak." |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Iraqis Forgive Americans | Radagast | General Messages | 166 | 06-07-2004 09:25 PM |
Endgame in Iraq | Valandil | General Messages | 58 | 06-05-2004 04:00 PM |
An American Apology to Iraqis | Ruinel | General Messages | 4 | 05-13-2004 12:54 PM |
We Were Soldiers (2002) | IronParrot | Entertainment Forum | 4 | 12-31-2002 10:41 AM |