Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
You will notice that my posts are generally against the administration, NOT the people. And you move to where you are most suited, right? Which is why I'd want to move to a more 'liberal' state.

It's not just this adminstration you have a problem with though. You surely don't forget the very anti-american articles you used to post. Let me refresh your memory - it usually involved when you were trying to condemn the evils of israel too.

I don't think the UN is perfect. From from it. It's bogged down with bureaucracy. However, it happens to be the only world forum we have at the moment, so I'll got with what we've got. If something better comes along - then I'll go with that.

As I think the the US government is the best in the world. Maybe not perfect - but our Constitution has gone through many hardships and survived for 200 years.

Well, I don't, and I don't think it's very fair for you to accuse me of doing so. I have said - repetitively - what I DO like about the US. I'm not going to list them again, as it's there in my posts to be freely read.

I would like to see some proof - not just talk. When you start criticizing more than just the US - start starting threads that criticize more than just the US - maybe I should believe you.

And you have the gall to call me snide. Nice one, JD. I posted that for a bit of levity, but since it's clear that you've painted me as some bad-ass Sauron who gets joy from watching people dying, and being be-headed.... Ah, why do I bother?

I don't know - you sort of left yourself open for that. You could have had yourself be Gondor - but of course the White Tower of Gondor is where the US resides.

I wash my hands of this pointless dialogue. I will continue to dislike the bush administration, and I will continue to like my American friends, and listen to my favourite American tunes, and catch the Friends/Frasier finals regardless of what you think, so it doesn't really matter. ::shrug::

The thing is - it isn't only the Bush adminstration you dislike. You have disdain for the CIA and you make snide comments about our government in general - such as on the first page where you said any other problems would be just swept under the rug. Bush makes up only one branch of our government - but you seem to hate all of it.

By the way - you sound just like Chirac in an interview he gave to show he wasn't anti-American. The difference is - he said "well I love fast food, I always gain several pounds when I come back from the US".

[Cirdan]

Your proud of the CIA? Granted espinage is a necessity, but it seems lately that when they aren't doing the sordid business required of them, they are failing to gather decent information, selling secrets to enemy states, and generally failing to perform. It's amazing that they were once able to penetrate to USSR but are baffled by two bit dictators now. Not a subject for bragging really.

And you know BoP is a lover of American culture and political ideals. She's just critical of certain policies and politicians, but I think it comes from an honest belief and not some knee-jerk reaction I've seen on both sides of these types of debates.

Despite your certitude of your own beliefs, you are no more right or wrong about what are, after subjective perspectives. And don't get ynw in here taking about moral absolutisms.

We didn't resort to torturing petty detainees in WWII and we defeated the fascist regimes pretty well.

I'm still waiting for my free oil. How much can you buy with 200 billion?

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I would like to see where I actually swore at her.

Gee, that seems like disputing with a moderator in open forum....
Funnily enough, thats the very same thing I got spanked for some threads ago...

Perhaps, ohhh just perhaps, the rules should apply to all of us with equal wrath.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Now...if...I...can....just....claw.....my....way.. ..through.....the.....giant.....American...flags.. ..waving....


I wonder how Americans think the Muslims feel after seeing the brutal and sadistic treatment of their own in prison? Does the US think that it was a public relations success?

One cannot compare torture to murder, (the bloke who got his throat cut on TV), but both are incredibly wrong. I get the feeling that Americans are happy that there is now something to show that the nasty muslims are still nastier than you.

Whats that saying I am trying to remember....something about two wrongs dont make a right? Or was it an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind? The musilms were just reacting to the cultured and enlightened Americans abusing their helpless Iraqi prisoners while they lay in chains. The only way for America to win is to be morally better than they are. Hearts and minds, and so forth...(because that worked so well in Vietnam )

And your all of to a smashing start

[Fenir_LacDanan]

And the argument that it was only a few bad soldiers that abused the prisoners doesn't wash. For one, perhaps at the OTHER torture sessions, they were out of film, or their cameras were in the shop....

And its been said before, but I love saying it again. Perhaps, if it was only a terrible few whom commited these acts of abuse in prisons, (I'm sure the entire American Army isn't going through Iraq raping and pillaging, a la the Vikings), then perhaps it is also only a terible few muslims who are cutting off heads and flying planes into buildings?
If the entire US army cannot be held accountable for the actions of a deranged few, then it follows that the entire musilm world cannot be held to the same account.

[BeardofPants]

Thanks Mark. I like you even though you are an American.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Thanks for the afternoon theatre. Enjoy your pint, FMcL

Cheers indeed Gaff, sunk quite a few and am now rested for act two of the new play "Fenir Vs the Americans II - This time its Personal", a Gilbert and Sullivan adaptation of HMS Pinafore. Fenir, the lone crusader, played by Colin Farrel, is fighting JerseyDevil, his nemesis from across the sea, played by Matt Damon, as the whole contest is being overseen by Sister Golden Hair, played by Sharon Stone. Only two weeks left! Tony awards all round!

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I understand what you are saying Val. I think though it is much easier for us as spectators to sit back and say what needs to be done, and how things should be handled. I also think it is hard in the position of the coalition to know the good guys from the bad guys. They are facing great danger at the hands of these insurgents that resort to fighting from mosques and holy shrines that are sacred places to the Iraqi people, using them as shields in the hopes that coalition forces will not fire back, but if they do, and destroy these holiest of places, well, then the Iraqi people are upset with the Americans. this is just one example of the sneaky, underhanded methods they resort to that causes retalitory action, making the coalition look bad.

Well... we're all playing 'arm-chair commander-in-chief' aren't we?

Yes - this is a complex undertaking - and sorting out the good guys from the bad is problematic. That will be true anytime troops from one culture are doing this sort of thing within a different culture.

I just think we hurt ourselves when we resort to torture. It comes down to whether your view is 'The Ends Justify the Means' or 'The Means Shape the Ends'. I think the latter is true... and that those who subscribe to the former view will fall victim to the law of the latter.

As someone rightly pointed out, tortue brings a high return of false confessions. Right here in Chicago we have a mess on our hands... scores of convictions in capital cases - over maybe a 20 year period - where there's now the possibility that the police had used torture to exact confessions. It's a sad shame.

[The Gaffer]

Well said, sir.

What a lovely slagfest. But maybe there's an actual discussion point here. Several people have made the point that "it's a war and bad stuff happens", then gone on to say that the insurgents are not soldiers so aren't covered by the Geneva Convention. So, which is it? A war or not?

If it's not a war, then these people must be suspected criminals, in which case the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" comes to mind.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
If it's not a war, then these people must be suspected criminals, in which case the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" comes to mind.

Thank you for the compliment... and it's hard to expect ANYONE to read all these posts, but I did mention that ('innocent until proven guilty') in my little 'treatise' on p. 18 (if you wanna check it out - 6 pages back and a whole 16 hours ago). If we want to export democracy to Iraq, we have to export these very rights we ourselves treasure to them in the process... maybe even to BEGIN the process.

We need to extend that courtesy to the prison guards involved as well... though some of the pictorial evidence (discounting hoaxes) seems hard to dispute.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I saw that. I think that your posts are entirely self-consistent.

(What time is it with you??? Shouldn't you be asleep? Are the little-uns giving you late-night gyp?)

[QueenAnnesLace]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
And the argument that it was only a few bad soldiers that abused the prisoners doesn't wash. For one, perhaps at the OTHER torture sessions, they were out of film, or their cameras were in the shop....

And its been said before, but I love saying it again. Perhaps, if it was only a terrible few whom commited these acts of abuse in prisons, (I'm sure the entire American Army isn't going through Iraq raping and pillaging, a la the Vikings), then perhaps it is also only a terible few muslims who are cutting off heads and flying planes into buildings?
If the entire US army cannot be held accountable for the actions of a deranged few, then it follows that the entire musilm world cannot be held to the same account.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know that anyone is holding the WHOLE muslim world accountable.And that the only muslims anyone is holding responsible are the ones that either have agreed with,ordered or actually committed the horrible acts themselves.

I think that the American soldiers that did what they did should be severely punished for thier acts.But to hold the whole U.S. military responsible?I didn't realize that the whole U.S. military agreed with what had been done.

I don't agree with a lot of things you say but am I going to hold all of Waterford,Eire responible?No, because that would be absurd.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Your proud of the CIA? Granted espinage is a necessity, but it seems lately that when they aren't doing the sordid business required of them, they are failing to gather decent information, selling secrets to enemy states, and generally failing to perform. It's amazing that they were once able to penetrate to USSR but are baffled by two bit dictators now. Not a subject for bragging really.

Yeah - thanks to Clinton for cutting back on all the budgets and things - the intelligence community was left with few translators and so forth. Intelligence is not a 100% thing - and they are important - too bad Clinton was too blind to see HIOW important while bin Ladin was being permitted to bomb our embassies.

And you know BoP is a lover of American culture and political ideals. She's just critical of certain policies and politicians, but I think it comes from an honest belief and not some knee-jerk reaction I've seen on both sides of these types of debates.

So - she likes our culture - whoopee. Oh great for her for liking our political ideals. Too bad she has absolutely no respect for Americans who don't believe the same that she does - which is the majority of Americans. That is the most lame thing to say someone likes a country because they like the culture.

Despite your certitude of your own beliefs, you are no more right or wrong about what are, after subjective perspectives. And don't get ynw in here taking about moral absolutisms.

Oh - but people such as you and BoP and Fenir can talk in absolutes and be so confident of your beliefs. JUust like BoPs comment that she KNOWS if this situation happened again - the US would just sweep it under the rug. Her contempt for the US come through very clear. I don't care if she doesn't like Bush - she doesn't actually like ANYTHING the US does - because it has never been exactly the way SHE wants it. That is also Fenir's problem.

We didn't resort to torturing petty detainees in WWII and we defeated the fascist regimes pretty well.

Soi out of MILLIONS of soldiers - there was never ONCE any abuse. I highly doubt that was the case. Also - we didn't RESORT to torturing them - you see there you go - as well as the others - implying that this was a military wide abuse - and so far nothing indicates that this was.

I'm still waiting for my free oil. How much can you buy with 200 billion?

Only the ignorant ever felt it was for oil. Maybe this should show people that it wasn't for the oil - - because it was stated BEFORE the war that it be cheeper to deal with Hussein for oil than to go to war over it. But hey - the "No war for oil" is such a cool slogan isn't it? and works so easily on the brainless peolple who don't bother to watch the news and read newspapers.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know that anyone is holding the WHOLE muslim world accountable.And that the only muslims anyone is holding responsible are the ones that either have agreed with,ordered or actually committed the horrible acts themselves.

Don't you know he likes to twist facts and so forth? He doesn't care what people say - he stated in his first thread how much he hated America. it's not secret.

I think that the American soldiers that did what they did should be severely punished for thier acts.But to hold the whole U.S. military responsible?I didn't realize that the whole U.S. military agreed with what had been done.

As has been said adnauseum throughout the tread - but the likes of Fenir don't care. All they care about is that they have something else to bitch about the US about.

I don't agree with a lot of things you say but am I going to hold all of Waterford,Eire responible?No, because that would be absurd.

Come on - don't you know all irish are drunk terrorists? Especially the damn northerners. We aways get accused of talking in such broad terms - too bad Fenir doesn't give Americans the same respect he expects us to give people of other countries. But hey - we're just damn Americans in his eyes.

[Lizra]

Can't people post opinions without dragging names and personal attacks into this discussion? Yesterday I read some interesting posts, today seems to have turned into a personal attack fest. Bummer!

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Can't people post opinions without dragging names and personal attacks into this discussion? Yesterday I read some interesting posts, today seems to have turned into a personal attack fest. Bummer!

Well... I was just about to call you a "Hoosier"... but you're right, I'll just let it pass!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Can't people post opinions without dragging names and personal attacks into this discussion? Yesterday I read some interesting posts, today seems to have turned into a personal attack fest. Bummer!

Hey - I'm irish - I don't see much of a problem with it - since I am Irish. I wanted to make a point about judging whole races and nations. People aren't doing that here - but being accused of it.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
(What time is it with you??? Shouldn't you be asleep? Are the little-uns giving you late-night gyp?)

THAT was a couple nights ago. This past night was actually quite a loud thunder storm... and I just couldn't get back to sleep after. It was so hot and humid in my room. Later saw that my wife had the heat on (and we had a few windows still open). Understandable though - we're shifting back and forth between temps in the mid-40s (~7 or 8 Celsius) and low 80s (~27 or 28 Celsius - for you Metrix People!).

What's the matter though... getting nervous because your own time is coming?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

As has been said adnauseum throughout the tread - but the likes of Fenir don't care. All they care about is that they have something else to bitch about the US about.

the military leadership however, is responsible for their subordinates... whether they knew what they were doing or not... i have yet to see anyone of real authority accept this fact

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
the military leadership however, is responsible for their subordinates... whether they knew what they were doing or not... i have yet to see anyone of real authority accept this fact

Because it is not a fact. If they have no idea of what is going on - how do you expect them to be responsible and do something about it? It depends on if they knew what was going on there and if they chose not to do anything. But when Rumsfeld KNEW about it - he issued a press release - said that an investigation was underway. It wasn't just swept under the rug.

If a soldier rapes a citizen in a foreign land - the president - nor people in the chain of command is responsible for that. If the higher ups were responsible for every wrong doing of the soldiers in their command - whether they kenw it or not - there would be no US armed forces. That is why we are having an investigation - to find out how far and how wide this is.

I say again with people pointing fingers at the whole military - how many of you think Beor is a bad person? He himself has said that this is an isolated incident and has said how they go out of their way to help the iraqis - but everyone wants to ignore that. Don't you think that if this was widespread - he would have been told also to bust in heads - especially since he goes on missions to search houses and so forth? Don't you think that more soldiers would be brought forward by these so called sources that say how widespread this is? So far there has been no evidence that it is widespread other than some news articles from liberal magazines - which is not suprising.