Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
*sigh* The important thing to learn from this debacle is that apparently some members of the US army are culpable of not adhering to the GC. This is not a reflection on the whole US army, nor a reflection upon the American people. HOWEVER, it goes without saying, that this is not an isolated matter, nor is it restricted to a few low-ranking 'hillbillies' (as evidenced by Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay).

As evidenced by Guantanamo Bay? ASs evidenced by Afganistan? Do you have proof of abuse there? Where is the proof of it not being an isolated matter? Too bad you don't put the same questioning and condemnation toward the UN about the underhanded deals as you do about the US. But hey - you have made it perfectly clear you do not trust the US whatsoever.

Also: consider what they did to the prisoners. Consider the notion of cultural differences. Whilst we westerners may not think much of being paraded around naked, and forced to simulate sex, or rape (!), it is something else altogether to a muslim people. (though, I would argue that being hooded, and forced to strip naked, and enduring sexual force would be something that most of you wouldn't want occurring to yourselves.) And even if you don't believe that the high numbers posted by the Red Cross are true, even so, SOME of these prisoners are innocent. Some innocents would have been subjected to being sodomised, raped, stripped of both their clothes and dignity. And before you go on about so-called intelligence pointing to their guilt, remember this: Colin Powell has had to come forward more than once to rescind previous intelligence leading to the Iraq war. (link) There is supposedly footage of a man being forced to bash himself against the wall. Another of someone being forced to sodomise himself with a broom. Is this better than being beheaded? Really?

I'm not sure - did you bother to SEE the beheading? You talk about supposed pictures of such and such happening - but i can show you damned video of the sawing off of berg's head and then you tell me which is worse.

[jerseydevil]

As for the intelligence that Powell had to rescind that was the same ****ing intelligence that all the world had. What is funny is that serin was found in a bomb in Iraq today. So before judging again so quickly that iraq had no chemical or biological weapons - you might want to wait until the country is stabalized and we can actualy look in all the knooks and crannies.

Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq
Bomb Containing Sarin Nerve Agent Explodes in Iraq Without Causing Injuries, Military Says

BAGHDAD, Iraq May 17, 2004 — A roadside bomb containing deadly sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday. It was apparently a leftover from the Saddam era arsenal, but it was uncertain if more such weapons were in the hands of insurgents.

Two members of a military bomb squad were treated for "minor exposure," but no serious injuries were reported.

The chemicals were inside an artillery shell dating to the Saddam Hussein era that had been rigged as a bomb in Baghdad, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq.

It appears two chemical components in the shell, which are designed to combine and create sarin during flight, did not mix properly or completely upon detonation, a U.S. official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Kimmitt, however, said a small amount of the nerve agent was released.

Earlier this month, some trace residue of mustard agent, an older type of chemical weapon, was detected in an artillery shell found in a Baghdad street, a U.S. official in Washington said on condition of anonymity. The shell was believed to be from one of Saddam's old stockpiles, and was not regarded as evidence of recent weapons of mass destruction production in Iraq.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the results were from a field test, which can be imperfect, and more analysis needed to be done. "We have to be careful," he told an audience in Washington Monday afternoon.

Rumsfeld said it many take some time to determine precisely what the chemical was.

Two former weapons inspectors Hans Blix and David Kay said the shell was likely a stray weapon that had been scavenged by militants and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles of such weapons.

Kimmitt said he believed that insurgents who planted the explosive didn't know it contained the nerve agent.

Sarin-type agents produced by Iraq were largely of low quality and degraded shortly after production, U.N. inspectors said in a March 2003 report. They said it was unlikely that agents produced in the 1980s would still work today.

U.S. troops have announced the discovery of other chemical weapons before, only to see them disproved by later tests. A dozen chemical shells were also found by U.N. inspectors before the war; they had been tagged for destruction in the 1990s but somehow were not destroyed.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Kimmitt said. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.

The incident occurred "a couple of days ago," he said.

The Iraqi Survey Group is a U.S. organization whose task was to search for weapons of mass destruction after Saddam's ouster.

The round was an old `binary-type' shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.

Many of the materials used for roadside bombs are believed to have been looted from arsenals after the collapse of the regime in April 2003.

Dispersal of the gas would be far more effective if a shell containing nerve agent were fired from an artillery piece, he said. Kimmitt said he believed it was the first case in which U.S. forces had found an artillery shell containing sarin.

It was unclear if the sarin shell was from chemical rounds that the United Nations had tagged and marked for destruction before the U.S. invasion.

Prior to the war, U.N. inspectors had compiled a short list of proscribed items found during hundreds of surprise inspections: fewer than 20 old, empty chemical warheads for battlefield rockets, and a dozen artillery shells filled with mustard gas. The shells had been tagged by U.N. inspectors in the 1990s but somehow not destroyed by them.

Kay, who led a U.S. team hunting for weapons, said it appears that the shell was one of tens of thousands produced for the Iran-Iraq war, which Saddam was supposed to destroy or turn over to the United Nations. In many cases, he said, Iraq did comply.

continued...

[jerseydevil]

continued...

"It is hard to know if this is one that just was overlooked and there were always some that were overlooked, we knew that or if this was one that came from a hidden stockpile," Kay said. "I rather doubt that because it appears the insurgents didn't even know they had a chemical round."

While Saturday's explosion does demonstrate that Saddam hadn't complied fully with U.N. resolutions, Kay also said, "It doesn't strike me as a big deal."

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the Nazis actually using the gas.

The Bush administration cited allegations that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as a main reason for launching the war in Iraq last year.

The Iraq Survey Group, made up of dozens of teams, has been conducting a secretive and largely fruitless weapons hunt across Iraq for more than a year. The survey group combines members of the CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, U.S. military Special Forces and others.

The team has run into a number of dead ends. In January, for example, field tests on discovered mortar shells near Qurnah in southern Iraq indicated a blister agent was in the shells. But followup tests indicated that the munitions did not contain the agents, though U.S. officials said Saddam had such agents in the early to mid-1990s.

Blix, the former U.N. weapons inspector, said in Sweden Monday that before the war, his team found 16 empty warheads that were marked for use with sarin.

He said it was likely the sarin gas used could have been from a leftover shell found in a chemical dump.

"It doesn't sound absurd at all. There can be debris from the past and that's a very different thing from have stocks and supplies," he said.

According to U.N. weapons inspectors, sarin-type agents constituted about 20 percent of all chemical weapons agents that Saddam Hussein's government declared it had produced.

The accounting for sarin was one of a dozen remaining disarmament tasks that inspectors submitted to the U.N. Security Council in March 2003, said Ewen Buchanan, a spokesman the U.N. inspectors.

"Iraq was known to possess a lot of this material, and there were questions about the accounting," Buchanan said.

Iraq declared that between 1984 and 1990, it produced 795 tons of Sarin-type agents. About 732 tons were put in bombs, rockets and missile warheads. Iraq further declared that about 650 tons were consumed during the period 1985 to 1988, which included the Iran-Iraq war, and 35 tons were destroyed through aerial bombardment during the Gulf war in 1991.

Iraq destroyed 127 tons of Sarin-type agents under U.N. supervision, including 76 tons in bulk and 51 tons from munitions.

All this aside: the US has set itself up as the World Police (whether through its own machinations, or because of apathy of other nations). It has to behave accordingly.

And I believe we are acting accordingly. if we weren't you woudl see us not doing anything about the abvuses of the iraqi soldiers and they wouldn't be punished. Instead we took action immediately - months before the pictures came out.

What happened in Iraq, and other prison facilities is an atrocity. At the very least Bush should remove Rumsfeld. And apologise - which he has still not done - for the indignities committed against the prisoners.

He HAS apologised -0 I saw the damn ****ing press conference LIVE on TV - where he ****ing apologized TWICE. Sorry your news decided not to cover it - but he did PUBLICLY apologize.

Posted on Thu, May. 06, 2004

An excerpt of Bush's apology

Associated Press

An excerpt of President Bush's comments Thursday at an appearance with King Abdullah II of Jordan:

We also talked about what has been on the TV screens recently, not only in our own country but overseas - the images of cruelty and humiliation. I told His Majesty as plainly as I could that the wrongdoers will be brought to justice, and that the actions of those folks in Iraq do not represent the values of the United States of America.

I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners, and the humiliation suffered by their families. I told him I was equally sorry that people who have been seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America. I assured him Americans, like me, didn't appreciate what we saw, that it made us sick to our stomachs. I also made it clear to His Majesty that the troops we have in Iraq, who are there for security and peace and freedom, are the finest of the fine, fantastic United States citizens, who represent the very best qualities of America: courage, love of freedom, compassion, and decency.

As I said - I guess your news chose to ignore his apology. Bush stopped sort of an apology on Arab news - but two days later gave his apology.

[Mercutio]

If you missed it (or even if you didn't) here is an article on the suicide bombing today:

Suicide assassin kills Iraq Council chief

By ROBERT H. REID

Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A suicide bombing killed the head of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council as his car waited at a checkpoint near coalition headquarters Monday, a major setback to American efforts to stabilize Iraq just six weeks before the handover of sovereignty.

Izzadine Saleem, also known as Abdel-Zahraa Othman, was waiting in a Governing Council convoy at a U.S. checkpoint along a tree-lined street preparing to enter the Green Zone when the bomb was detonated. It apparently had been rigged with artillery shells and hidden inside a red Volkswagen.

Iraqi officials said nine people, including the bomber, were killed and 14 Iraqis and an Egyptian were wounded in Monday's attack. Kimmitt put the death toll at seven. Two U.S. soldiers were slightly wounded.

Iraqi and coalition officials vowed that the power transfer would take place on June 30, as scheduled, despite the attack.

Secretary of State Colin Powell called Saleem an Iraqi patriot. "Terrorist may have taken his life, but they will never be able to kill his dreams or those of the Iraqi people."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Iraqis will "continue his work" of building a democratic nation.

Saleem, a Shiite Muslim in his 60s, held the rotating presidency of the 25-member Governing Council for May. He was the second council member slain since their appointment last July; Aquila al-Hashimi was mortally wounded by gunmen in September.

Insurgents also have targeted police and army recruitment centers and other Iraqis perceived as owing their positions to the Americans.

The U.S. military said the car bombing was a suicide attack and Kimmitt said it had the "classic hallmarks" of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian-born militant with links to al-Qaida.

However, a previously unknown group, the Arab Resistance Movement, claimed responsibility, saying in a Web site posting that two of its fighters carried out the attack on "the traitor and mercenary" Saleem.

Kimmitt said he did not know if the Arab Resistance Movement was "a cover for the Zarqawi network or if it's an actual organization."

Al-Zarqawi is believed responsible for many of the vehicle bombs in Iraq in recent months and for the beheading last week of U.S. civilian Nicholas Berg.

The Governing Council selected Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, a Sunni Muslim civil engineer from Mosul, to succeed Saleem. Al-Yawer will lead the council until June 30, when sovereignty will be transferred to a new interim Iraqi government.

Appearing before reporters with several council colleagues, al-Yawer promised the Iraqi leadership would continue "the march toward building a democratic, federal, plural and unified Iraq."

"God willing, the criminal forces will be defeated despite all the pain they are causing to our people and their heroic leaders," he said.

The Arab Resistance Movement Web site appeared to be associated with Anbar province, a stronghold of the Sunni resistance that includes Fallujah.

Governing Council member Ahmad Chalabi said militants have using Fallujah as a base since U.S. Marines lifted a three-week siege there last month and turned security over to an Iraqi force that includes members of Saddam Hussein's former army.

"The terrorists are free to roam around and they have been given sanctuary in Fallujah," Chalabi complained. "The garage is open and car bombs are coming repeatedly."

U.S. officials, who have touted the Fallujah agreement as a success story, cast doubt on Chalabi's claim.

L. Paul Bremer, the top U.S. administrator in Iraq, called Saleem's killing a "shocking and tragic loss" and promised that "the terrorists who are seeking to destroy Iraq" would be defeated.

Saleem's killing stunned a country already reeling from an upsurge in violence. The United States, the United Nations and their Iraqi partners have not agreed on the structure of a new government that is to take office - nor what powers it will wield.

U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi has been consulting with council members and other Iraqis about the makeup of the interim government, and there had been speculation Saleem might get a post.

In a statement, Brahimi condemned the killing "which has taken the life of one of Iraq's most loyal and patriotic citizens ... who worked sincerely and selflessly so that Iraq may regain its sovereignty and strength."

Also Monday, two American soldiers were killed in action in Anbar province west of Baghdad, the military said. The troops were assigned to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, but the military declined to release other details, citing security concerns.

An uprising led by radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has spread violence throughout the formerly quiet Shiite areas south of Baghdad, while U.S. forces continue to battle Sunni insurgents to the north and west of the capital.

Polish forces estimated 30 al-Sadr militiamen were killed in overnight fighting in the Shiite holy city of Karbala, including 17 near the Imam Hussein Shrine, Kimmitt said Monday.

Italian troops on Monday moved back to a military base they abandoned in Nasiriyah during fighting with the militiamen, who later left the base themselves, Italian officials said.

Italian military Chief of Staff Adm. Giampaolo Di Paola said he believed the insurgents departed after negotiations with Shiite leaders.

A corporal was killed during the fighting - the 20th Italian to die in Iraq. A U.S. airstrike against five vehicles in Nasiriyah killed an estimated 20 militiamen, Kimmitt said.

The U.S. military said Monday that U.S. soldiers found a roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent in Baghdad. The device, which partially detonated, was apparently a leftover from Saddam's arsenals. It was unclear whether more such weapons were in the hands of insurgents.

Soldiers who removed the bomb experienced symptoms consistent with low-level nerve agent exposure, U.S. officials said. No one was wounded in the partial blast Saturday, and the dispersal of sarin from the bomb was very limited, the military said.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
An editorial article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer

Random...but nice to see someone else who reads the Philly Inquirer.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
And it appears the mindset that led to these excesses, embarassment ploys, tortures, call them what you will, originated far above the privates/sargeants carrying them out.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/4386
A Newsweek article: The Roots of Torture: The Road to Abu Ghraib

There is NO indication that just because we felt that terrorists were a new kind of enemy that we condoned torture of iraqis. That is ridiculous and it's so easy to believe the press isn't it. If someone wrote - it must be true - right?

From the beginning of the above citation:
"May 24 - It's not easy to get a member of Congress to stop talking. Much less a room full of them. But as a small group of legislators watched the images flash by in a small, darkened hearing room in the Rayburn Building last week, a sickened silence descended. There were 1,800 slides and several videos, and the show went on for three hours. The nightmarish images showed American soldiers at Abu Ghraib Prison forcing Iraqis to masturbate. American soldiers sexually assaulting Iraqis with chemical light sticks. American soldiers laughing over dead Iraqis whose bodies had been abused and mutilated. There was simply nothing to say. "It was a very subdued walk back to the House floor," said Rep. Jane Harman, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "People were ashen."

The White House put up three soldiers for court-martial, saying the pictures were all the work of a few bad-apple MPs who were poorly supervised. But evidence was mounting that the furor was only going to grow and probably sink some prominent careers in the process. Senate Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner declared the pictures were the worst "military misconduct" he'd seen in 60 years, and he planned more hearings."

So - I don't see the problem. It seems as if we ARE doing something about it. You gusy act like we're just ****ing around and not do jack **** to get to the bottom of this. it's funny though - everyone keeps talking about all this abuse being all wide spread and the only place there seems to be pictures coming out of is this ONE ****ing prison.

As for the military misconduct - I believe that is is terrible. I have nothing to base it on if it's the worst though. It could be true - may not be true. All that matters that it was terrible what happened to the prisoners. But you guys act as if the US is and has been just shoving this under the rug and ignoring it - which is not the case. All you guys want to do is rub our noses in it. That is whole purpose of this thread. You don't really care about the Iraqis - or anything - just the fact that American soldiers did this. if it was anyone else who had done this to those prisoners - you wouldn't have cared at all - there would be no thread, there would no talk of this.

Why don't people ****ing wait until the ACTUAL facts are out before passing judgement on everyone - including Rumsfeld. Why? Becuase you don't like Bush, you don't like America and you don't like Rumsfeld. And if there is ANYTHING that give you reason to bad mouth america you will run with it until somethine comes up.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As evidenced by Guantanamo Bay? ASs evidenced by Afganistan? Do you have proof of abuse there? Where is the proof of it not being an isolated matter? ... blah blah

Oh come on, I'm sure you've seen the New Yorker article.

I have asked this before, but please stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not sure - did you bother to SEE the beheading? You talk about supposed pictures of such and such happening - but i can show you damned video of the sawing off of berg's head and then you tell me which is worse.

You missed my point. I find them to be equally distasteful. Especially since the US is supposed to be held to a higher standard than the terrorist insurgents. And yes: I did see the video. It made me just about lose my breakfast, and if you remember, I damned them a couple of pages ago.

Edit: And the sarin is dated from the iran-iraq encounter. Hardly a WMD since sarin has a short shelf life.

Also, can you please stop swearing at me. Can't you at least debate civilly? Or do you not need to since you can apparently hide behind SGH's skirts?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Oh come on, I'm sure you've seen the New Yorker article.

I heard about it - yes. Does that make it true because it was reported in the New Yorker? I thought there was such thing as innocence until proven guilty - but it seems like you guys want to assume all the Iraqis are innocent - but let America and Rumsfeld and Bush out to dry.

I have asked this before, but please stop putting words in my mouth.

You missed my point. I find them to be equally distasteful. Especially since the US is supposed to be held to a higher standard than the terrorist insurgents. And yes: I did see the video. It made me just about lose my breakfast, and if you remember, I damned them a couple of pages ago.

So because we're supposed to be held to a HIGHER standard - we're 100% perfect then?

Edit: And the sarin is dated from the iran-iraq encounter. Hardly a WMD since sarin has a short shelf life.
]

Oh - so that makes it impossible that there is other stuff?

Also, can you please stop swearing at me. Can't you at least debate civilly? Or do you not need to since you can apparently hide behind SGH's skirts?

I swear if i damn well feel like swearing. I'm not preventing the filter from catching them. Dont' tell me you have virgin ears. YOu can think what you want about SGH - and whether I get special treatment - you have never been banned either and you RUTINELY have made personal attacks against me.

And for your information - I wasn't even swearing at you.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Oh come on, I'm sure you've seen the New Yorker article.

I have asked this before, but please stop putting words in my mouth.



You missed my point. I find them to be equally distasteful. Especially since the US is supposed to be held to a higher standard than the terrorist insurgents. And yes: I did see the video. It made me just about lose my breakfast, and if you remember, I damned them a couple of pages ago.

Edit: And the sarin is dated from the iran-iraq encounter. Hardly a WMD since sarin has a short shelf life.

Also, can you please stop swearing at me. Can't you at least debate civilly? Or do you not need to since you can apparently hide behind SGH's skirts?

Equally distateful? They are hardly equal. It sounds like you are saying that because the terrorists are not held to a higher standard, then it's okay to saw someones head off and it's more acceptable, because, well, their terrorists. Give me a break.

And yes, JD stop swearing at her. and for your information Miss BoP, no one hides behind my skirts, not JD, not you, so I suggest all of you calm down before this thread gets closed. I mean it

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Oh come on, I'm sure you've seen the New Yorker article.

Ahem...

The New Yorker is a long running and widely respected liberal magazine (debuted on February 21, 1925), well known for its success at popularizing the short story as a literary form in English in the mid-20th century. The magazine also is known for its journalism, [...] Some readers look only for the cartoons and short humorous pieces. Its long pieces are known for their rambling style that pays close attention to characters. Because of its quality and reputation, The New Yorker has a wide audience outside of the city of New York.

What a wonderful, unbiased account you have here.

and could you two please stop bickering with more than bickering words?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
And yes, JD stop swearing at her.

Well I would like to see where I actually swore at her.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I heard about it - yes. Does that make it true because it was reported in the New Yorker? I thought there was such thing as innocence until proven guilty ....

No, it doesn't make it true. However, it does make it look like Iraq wasn't an isolated occurance. And if you're going to harp on about innocence until proven guilty, then what about the iraqi prisoners who got detained, and then tortured? If the red cross report is right, then well... when did they get THEIR chance?

So because we're supposed to be held to a HIGHER standard - we're 100% perfect then?

Unfortunately, yes. It's what the US elected for when it became a world policing body. Understand this: I do believe that what the terrorists did to Berg was absolutely horrible. Given the choice between rape, and being demoralised, and being beheaded, I think I would choose the former. But, as far as I'm concerned, they're equally distasteful acts. They are comparable to each other. What the US troops did to these people was abhorred, and beyond redemption.

As for the sarin: well, all I was saying is that it hardly counts as WMDs. The jury is still out on that one.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Equally distateful? They are hardly equal. It sounds like you are saying that because the terrorists are not held to a higher standard, then it's okay to saw someones head off and it's more acceptable, because, well, their terrorists. Give me a break.

Not what I'm saying AT ALL. What I am saying is that terrorists will be... well terrorists. They do nasty stuff, that is horrible, and unconscionable. The US army on the other hand went in there to liberate the iraqi people. A certain level of decency is expected of 'liberators' and torturing potentially innocent detainees ain't it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
No, it doesn't make it true. However, it does make it look like Iraq wasn't an isolated occurance. And if you're going to harp on about innocence until proven guilty, then what about the iraqi prisoners who got detained, and then tortured? If the red cross report is right, then well... when did they get THEIR chance?

Yeah - you are the one that is judging the US government and so forth every chance you get. As for the iraqis - that IS a war zone. Sorry - if you want the world to be a perfect place - but war zones are not. You however just want to blame the US before any of th facts are even revealed - at one of your first posts on this thread - you even said that you felt if this happened again that the US would just shove it under the rug. You have such disdain for the US it isn't even funny.

Unfortunately, yes. It's what the US elected for when it became a world policing body.

We didn't elect to be the world's police - we were put in this position by the ineptitude of the rest of the world.

Understand this: I do believe that what the terrorists did to Berg was absolutely horrible. Given the choice between rape, and being demoralised, and being beheaded, I think I would choose the former. But, as far as I'm concerned, they're equally distasteful acts. They are comparable to each other. What the US troops did to these people was abhorred, and beyond redemption.

yeah - it shows so much with your constant constant harping on the US. Too bad your posts don't really indicate that though. It's more like - "hey one more **** up by the US that I can mark down and use on entmoot". Bet you're dying for the next one aren't you?

As for the sarin: well, all I was saying is that it hardly counts as WMDs. The jury is still out on that one.

Then why do you and others keep acting as if there is none - if the jury is still out? As for the WMD - I don't really care if there is any - because that wasn't the only reason why we went into Iraq.

Not what I'm saying AT ALL. What I am saying is that terrorists will be... well terrorists. They do nasty stuff, that is horrible, and unconscionable. The US army on the other hand went in there to liberate the iraqi people. A certain level of decency is expected of 'liberators' and torturing potentially innocent detainees ain't it.

Yes - there is a certain level of decency expected of our soldiers - and please tell me where all these other soldiers who perpetrated all the other attrocities are if it's so wide spread. You and others keep saying the Red Croiss says this - the Red Cross says that - but so far there has been no proof of anything. The Red Cross hasn't produced any pictures. So don't act like it's ALL the US military that did this because you don't know.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yeah - you are the one that is judging the US government and so forth every chance you get. ... You have such disdain for the US it isn't even funny.

*sigh* Once again: it is no secret that I find the current administration far from admirable, and that I am against the current administration's foreign policy, BUT I am not against the US, nor do I have a distain for the US. Contrary to belief, it is possible to separate a dislike for the govt. from that of the people, and I don't dislike or distain the American people. As you well know, since I want to live there some day. Hell, I even work closely with one at the moment in my GIS post-grad class. If I really hated Americans, I would've opted to work in another group.

We didn't elect to be the world's police - we were put in this position by the ineptitude of the rest of the world.

Hmmm... How is it not okay to bash the US, but it's alright for you to bash the rest of the world?

Bet you're dying for the next one aren't you?

Actually, no. I have said, and continue to say that I find this whole situation very sad. Do you imagine me laughing when I read about US and Iraqi fatalities? It may surprise you to know that I am against a quickie pull-out now. I feel that the US should stay put until the political climate has been ironed out. No use in liberating the people if you don't do it properly, right?

Yes - there is a certain level of decency expected of our soldiers - and please tell me where all these other soldiers who perpetrated all the other attrocities are if it's so wide spread.

Um, I dealt with this a few posts back. You will note that I said that a few individuals weren't representative of the whole army, but that it appeared that the practice had taken hold in other prison camps.

*BoP retreats to her ivory tower *

[Sister Golden Hair]

Hmmm... How is it not okay to bash the US, but it's alright for you to bash the rest of the world?

I don't believe that constitutes bashing, since there was no particular country referred to. That's a silly statement.

[hectorberlioz]

And JD said "ineptitude" not "stupidity", meaning they arent capable

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
*sigh* Once again: it is no secret that I find the current administration far from admirable, and that I am against the current administration's foreign policy, BUT I am not against the US, nor do I have a distain for the US. Contrary to belief, it is possible to separate a dislike for the govt. from that of the people, and I don't dislike or distain the American people. As you well know, since I want to live there some day. Hell, I even work closely with one at the moment in my GIS post-grad class. If I really hated Americans, I would've opted to work in another group.

Wanting to live in San Francisco is hardly living in the US. California isn't called the left coast for nothing. Andyou do have a disdain or the US - because it isn't only Bush that you dislike - it goes far deeper than that based on your present and past posts.

As for liking the US people - the majority of Americans supported the war in Iraq - 70% when it started. You will find the US in general way too right for you. I wonder what your feeling will be toward Americans after that. Being with people you only agree with isn't the same as "liking" the American people.

Hmmm... How is it not okay to bash the US, but it's alright for you to bash the rest of the world?

I actually very rarely bash the rest of the world and tell me - when have i ever started a thread to talk negatively about any other country like is repeatedly done with the US?

Tell me though - when are you going to have such disdain and contempt for the UN? When are you going to question them like you do with the US? if the US was caught with underhanded deals with Hussein like the UN was you would be all over it. Then you would make snide comments about the US investigating itself like the UN is doing. But hey - I know - that's your beloved oh so perfect UN - not the US which does no good in your eyes.

Actually, no. I have said, and continue to say that I find this whole situation very sad. Do you imagine me laughing when I read about US and Iraqi fatalities? It may surprise you to know that I am against a quickie pull-out now. I feel that the US should stay put until the political climate has been ironed out. No use in liberating the people if you don't do it properly, right?

Actually to tell you the truth - based on your past attitude i do find that hard to believe. I do picture you taking private joy everytime you hear about some mistep in the Iraq situation. Don't worry - I see the joy the French get everyday on French news. They don't hide their joy there.

Um, I dealt with this a few posts back. You will note that I said that a few individuals weren't representative of the whole army, but that it appeared that the practice had taken hold in other prison camps.

Where is the proof?

*BoP retreats to her ivory tower *

At least you got the location right - mordor.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I don't believe that constitutes bashing, since there was no particular country referred to. That's a silly statement.

So... would it be okay if I said something like, "All countries suck... except for New Zealand"? Or how about, "Man, I'm glad MY country doesn't suck nearly so much as the ones you guys come from"? Or how about.... "Death to all countries in the northern hemisphere"? Okay, okay, point taken. *BoP runs away from the stick of wrath*

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Wanting to live in San Francisco is hardly living in the US. California isn't called the left coast for nothing. Andyou do have a disdain or the US - because it isn't only Bush that you dislike - it goes far deeper than that based on your present and past posts.

You will notice that my posts are generally against the administration, NOT the people. And you move to where you are most suited, right? Which is why I'd want to move to a more 'liberal' state.

Tell me though - when are you going to have such disdain and contempt for the UN?

I don't think the UN is perfect. From from it. It's bogged down with bureaucracy. However, it happens to be the only world forum we have at the moment, so I'll got with what we've got. If something better comes along - then I'll go with that.

Actually to tell you the truth - based on your past attitude i do find that hard to believe. I do picture you taking private joy everytime you hear about some mistep in the Iraq situation.

Well, I don't, and I don't think it's very fair for you to accuse me of doing so. I have said - repetitively - what I DO like about the US. I'm not going to list them again, as it's there in my posts to be freely read.

At least you got the location right - mordor.

And you have the gall to call me snide. Nice one, JD. I posted that for a bit of levity, but since it's clear that you've painted me as some bad-ass Sauron who gets joy from watching people dying, and being be-headed.... Ah, why do I bother?

I wash my hands of this pointless dialogue. I will continue to dislike the bush administration, and I will continue to like my American friends, and listen to my favourite American tunes, and catch the Friends/Frasier finals regardless of what you think, so it doesn't really matter. ::shrug::

[BeardofPants]

Oh, I should add that Frank Herbert - author of Dune - comes from Washington State.