Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Ultimatejoe]

All of our posts are coming so fast that they are starting to run together. The cell block in question is populated with people that are of a higher-risk than the prison's general population; but there is evidence (From the Red Cross) that the general population has been mistreated horribly, which is my primary concern.

Oh - I know our Constitution VERY well. Our Constitution also stops at our border.

That's literally true. The problem is that the military does NOT stop at the border. If the incidents were isolated and not systemic (which I do find hard to believe, especially with the emergence of the Hersch article and the history of rendering) then you make a valid point. If however, military commanders located in the U.S. (like Rumsfeld and Bush) are complicit in any way, they are breaking the law according to Article 6. Again, that is a hypothetical.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
So they've been picking up Suicide Bombers? That'd be a tough interrogation.

it's not that tough if you catch them BEFORE they blow themselved up - which we have done on numerous occasions. We don't get the information on their hideouts just by questions locals.

As I've said repeatedly, most of the people being held in Abu Ghraib are BY ADMISSION innocent, so please stop equating prisoners with insurgents.
There is no direct relationship. Some of them probably are, but the bulk are not.

And you know this how? And who is the one who by admission has said this? The prisoners? The section of the prision in question - was for the highly suspected ones.

The kickbacks you are referring to went to companies, not governments. This really irks me. If you have any documents that links the scandal-plagued Oil-For-Aid program to the actual governments go ahead and post them; so far none has come to light... and somehow I can't see an American honestly suggesting that a government is responsible for the actions that private companies in that country engage in.

France, Germany and Russia protected the companies who were getting the kick backs. it's not a secret. It was openly disclosed after the war.

It's simple. The U.S. agreed to follow certain codes of conduct, and now they no longer do. If the U.S. hadn't signed the Geneva Convention (the ratification of which IS binding under the U.S. Constitution) then there would probably be no such scandal. It's not the behaviour that's at issue, it's the context. America is supposed to be the good-guy in this situation. THAT is why the spotlight is on the U.S. and British soldiers.

The spotlight is on the US because the world wants any reason to hate the US. So far this has still only been a select few soldiers and everyone is acting like iit's the entire US government and the military involved. Back in JANUARY, months before the pictures came out, there was a press release made about the abuse and the investigation. Everyone wants to act like it was just shoved under the rug though. The abuse was known and was being dealt with.

What's interesting to note is that the U.S. is free to opt out of the Conventions at any time:

Art. 158. Each of the High Contracting Parties shall be at liberty to denounce the present Convention.

The denunciation shall be notified in writing to the Swiss Federal Council, which shall transmit it to the Governments of all the High Contracting Parties.

The denunciation shall take effect one year after the notification thereof has been made to the Swiss Federal Council. However, a denunciation of which notification has been made at a time when the denouncing Power is involved in a conflict shall not take effect until peace has been concluded, and until after operations connected with release, repatriation and re-establishment of the persons protected by the present Convention have been terminated.

The denunciation shall have effect only in respect of the denouncing Power. It shall in no way impair the obligations which the Parties to the conflict shall remain bound to fulfil by virtue of the principles of the law of nations, as they result from the usages established among civilized peoples, from the laws of humanity and the dictates of the public conscience.

Instead the U.S. chose to continue playing by a certain set of rules, rules which they are no longer following. Iraq is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, which means that it applies to all Iraqi Nationals held by the occupying force. There is no abbrogation of these conventions because they might be insurgents. You say the Geneva Conventions do not apply... Here's a link to the Geneva Conventions; find me the article which excludes the current situation from their protections:

Geneva Conventions

[/b][/quote]
See - this is what really pisses me off. We ARE playing by the rules of the Geneva Convention. You see a FEW soldiers went beyond it. It was NOT the US who violated that is why we started investigating it back when we first found out about it. Everyone acts like the first time this was known was with the pictures and that no action was being taken. Soldiers do things on their own sometimes. There are people who do horrible things in every industry =- you can not expect the the US military or any military to be any different. There is one thing though that you seem to want to ignore - we aren't condoning it - we are taking action and we have been taking actiuon. That is ALSO part of the Geneva Convention. The only thing the Geneva Convention is a protection from government sactioned torture - not rogue soldiers.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
All of our posts are coming so fast that they are starting to run together. The cell block in question is populated with people that are of a higher-risk than the prison's general population; but there is evidence (From the Red Cross) that the general population has been mistreated horribly, which is my primary concern.

of course - believe that before any facts come out. Before any investigation. Maybe this is what is pissing off many Ameircans. You and the world expect the worst. BoP made the comment in a previous post if anything like this happened it would just be swept under the rug.

That's literally true. The problem is that the military does NOT stop at the border. If the incidents were isolated and not systemic (which I do find hard to believe, especially with the emergence of the Hersch article and the history of rendering) then you make a valid point. If however, military commanders located in the U.S. (like Rumsfeld and Bush) are complicit in any way, they are breaking the law according to Article 6. Again, that is a hypothetical.

Again - you and the world like to look at the US in the worst possible light. You yourself just admitted that you assume the worst before any facts actually come out. This is demonstrated here - "If the incidents were isolated and not systemic (which I do find hard to believe, especially with the emergence of the Hersch article and the history of rendering) "

I however am waiting for the facts and am not passing judgement on Rumsfeld because so far everything shows that he didn't know it was going on. Also - all evidence does show that it was isolated. Also - many of the 'victims" that have come forward have been found to be lying by the Red Cross and Amnesty International. Those facts don't get as reported though. One person they had one - had his arm all bandaged - said he was beat up and everything else - when they unwrapped his arm - there was nothing wrong at all.

[Ultimatejoe]

Care to source any of your assertions?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
ah yes of course its right. Of course we should pull our troops from all over the world and line them up on the boarders to shoot Mexicans trying to sneak in. (What about those sneaky Canadians though? Oh wait they look like us they are ok).

Whatever IR. Don't puyt ****ing words in my mouth. And don't claim to think you know how I feel about immigration - because you don't know jack **** about me.

[Insidious Rex]

Well I know you overreact to just about every comment.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Indeed. And it is amazing to me how many people seem ignorant of this essential point. It is NOT about THEM. It is about US. Do you really want to teach your children that its ok to be brutal and bullyish to others simply because they don’t play nice themselves? Do they just don’t get the colossal hypocrisy of invading a country to free it of a dictator and trumpeting ourselves as the true bringer of democracy and civilization and then turning around and saying hey its ok to do these horrible things to Iraqis because elements in their country do horrible things to us? Do we really want to justify our mistakes by trying desperately to compare them to atrocities committed by others?

So can you please show who is saying it was okay for our soldiers to do these things? I don't see anyone here saying that at all. As for comparing - we aren't comparing - we're just discussing and bringing to light things that have been going on in the Middle East that no one wants to talk about. it is a FACT that Berg had his head cut off. If you watch the video - you will hear him screaming in agony as they slice into the side of his neck and then come from behind, kneeling on him and then come from the front as he continue to scream and say "oh god no" and then as they have to push down hard to cut through the neck bone and then pick his head up from the hair and show it for the camera with Bergs mouth wide open.

Sorry if this is too graphic for you - but this a FACT of what happened to him. This is a FACT of what these people do. This area of the world RUTINELY throws acid on women's faces or stones them to death for looking at a man or talking to a strange man. What about the backpackers who were found stoned to death in Afganistan? What did they do to deserve that?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well I know you overreact to just about every comment.

No - It just pisses me off with your ignorant comments where you twist what I say so you can try making me out into a racist when you don't even know me.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
Care to source any of your assertions?

I have repeatedly - from the moment the war began. Go through the 1 - 2 years worth of my posts and threads. You will find many articles and documents I have quoted in my posts.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
So can you please show who is saying it was okay for our soldiers to do these things?

I have seen responses in here to the effect of "well those things werent so bad on the grande scale of things. they were bad people you know. and how else are we going to get the information?" Is that really any different?

As for comparing - we aren't comparing - we're just discussing and bringing to light things that have been going on in the Middle East that no one wants to talk about.

no one wants to talk about the berg killing? huh?? what news have you been watching. by the way that overly graphic discription of the killing was the kind of grand standing I was talking about. Again, we are talking apples to oranges here. American solidiers in a foreign prison abuse iraquis (some completely innocent) when our country is there to help bring FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY to them. vs: a NON IRAQUI terrorist lunatic brutally killing an american in an effort to promote their ANTI FREEDOM AND ANTI DEMOCRATIC reign of terror. How can you see any similarities there? When Iraquis come over here, take over a prison and start raping the prisoners with brooms then we can make a comparison. Till then if you want to "discuss and bring to light" things that happened to Nick Berg then why do it in the same sentence as "Yeah the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were wrong but..." Just end it there. And talk about Berg seperately. Im guessing NO one will disagree that his death wasnt the most foul and dispicable act they could imagine and the terrorist responsible should be hunted down and killed. You sure have my vote.

This is a FACT of what these people do. This area of the world RUTINELY throws acid on women's faces or stones them to death for looking at a man or talking to a strange man.

This is stereoptyping and misreprenting. Do americans routinely blow up government buidlings too?

[jerseydevil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Insidious Rex
[B]

3. My opinion on how the administration is handling this has taken a hit but by no means am I going to bail out on them let alone even condemn it.

This is an example of a very misleading question because of the wording. "let alone even..." makes it a negative.

As for my answer - it's this...

2. It hasnt effected my opinion one way or another.

War is hell and **** happens. Things have been going good and some things haven't been going good. Back in March they said that things would be blowing up as we got closer to the hand off date. They may be worse than what they thought - but in World War II there were many times that things were worse than they thought. That doesn't make it a losing situation. Things change and things must be adapted to the changing situation - which the US has been doing. So therefore - I think the adminstration has been doing a good job. If they just went about doing the same thing - regardless of what was thrown at them - then I would have problem. But they aren't - they are changing tactics based on the situation.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No - It just pisses me off with your ignorant comments where you twist what I say so you can try making me out into a racist when you don't even know me.

No you were definitely overreacting because i was refering to that ridiculous list that you said you agreed with and that said we should pull all our troops from around the world and station them on the mexican border to stop immigrants. I already KNOW you dont agree with the concept of pulling out troops. I alread KNOW we have BOTH agreed in other threads that pulling out of Iraq now would be studid. Yet you said that those points on that list looked right to you. So i was pointing out one obviously ridiculous one i already KNEW you disgareed with so I could prove that they ARENT good ideas. Capiche?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
This is an example of a very misleading question because of the wording. "let alone even..." makes it a negative.

then take out the "even" part if you like. My only point here was that a person with this opinion would NOT condemn or bail out on the administration because of what happened. the stress being that not only would they not bail out but they certainly wouldnt condemn it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I have seen responses in here to the effect of "well those things werent so bad on the grande scale of things. they were bad people you know. and how else are we going to get the information?" Is that really any different?

I didn't say that. but the truth is - everyone now is clamoring for any interragation methods to be off limits and that is completely assinine.

no one wants to talk about the berg killing? huh?? what news have you been watching. by the way that overly graphic discription of the killing was the kind of grand standing I was talking about.

That isn't grand standing - that's a fact. And yeah - the paper and news had about his death., Have you heard anything about it in the last couple of days? No - there hasn't been much about it. But the news will put on the same pictures of the iraqis over and over and over again. For how long now - 2 weeks?

Again, we are talking apples to oranges here. American solidiers in a foreign prison abuse iraquis (some completely innocent) when our country is there to help bring FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY to them. vs: a NON IRAQUI terrorist lunatic brutally killing an american in an effort to promote their ANTI FREEDOM AND ANTI DEMOCRATIC reign of terror. How can you see any similarities there? When Iraquis come over here, take over a prison and start raping the prisoners with brooms then we can make a comparison. Till then if you want to "discuss and bring to light" things that happened to Nick Berg then why do it in the same sentence as "Yeah the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were wrong but..." Just end it there. And talk about Berg seperately. Im guessing NO one will disagree that his death wasnt the most foul and dispicable act they could imagine and the terrorist responsible should be hunted down and killed. You sure have my vote.

And can you not see the apples and oranges of your posts with you making it out as if the WHOLE US military and government abused the prisoners?

By the way - I never said "Yeah the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were wrong but..." This is another example of your repeated twisting of words for your own points. No ONE is comparing the two.

Great I'm glad you think that the terrorists should be hunted down and killed. We have a break through - too bad you think that we can just ask them - "are you guilty" and they'll just say "yeah we killed him". If it was only so easy to get the information.

This is stereoptyping and misreprenting. Do americans routinely blow up government buidlings too?

Okay - how many americans have blown up buildings? how many americans have been suicide bombers? Now tell me - WOULD YOU like to go to the Middle East right now? Would you feel safe in Gaza? What about Saudi Arabia? You know - not all civilizations are the same - and it as a FACT that the Middle East has A LOT of extremists. It is a fact that it is one of the most violent regions on the planet.

What I find funny is that you get irritated at the wide brush strokes I painted the Middle East in - but you and your ilk have no problem painting republicans in wide brush strokes all the time.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
then take out the "even" part if you like. My only point here was that a person with this opinion would NOT condemn or bail out on the administration because of what happened. the stress being that not only would they not bail out but they certainly wouldnt condemn it.

Concdemn what? You didn't even make that clear in your question. Condemn the actions of the soldiers? Condemn going into Iraq? Condemn what?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
No you were definitely overreacting because i was refering to that ridiculous list that you said you agreed with and that said we should pull all our troops from around the world and station them on the mexican border to stop immigrants. I already KNOW you dont agree with the concept of pulling out troops. I alread KNOW we have BOTH agreed in other threads that pulling out of Iraq now would be studid. Yet you said that those points on that list looked right to you. So i was pointing out one obviously ridiculous one i already KNEW you disgareed with so I could prove that they ARENT good ideas. Capiche?

I never said I agreed with the whole thing - I said i saw nothing wrong with it. as for what you are referring to ....

2.) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

I actually don't see much of a problem with much of that statement. I support removing our troops from germany and putting them in the Eastern European countries instead - which is what we are doing. it is true that I have a problem with bringing our troops home - but I also support the large carrier ships we are planning on building that will be floating bases. That way we don't have to worry about Saudi Arabia, Europe and other countries support. I also do NOT support illegal immigration - which was also the point.

Let me remind you what I said in regards to the Robin Williams quote in response to your comment...

As you can see with the context of my post - I was mostly referring to the immigration issue not every point on the list there. You again assumed that I agreed with it 100%.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I didn't say that. but the truth is - everyone now is clamoring for any interragation methods to be off limits and that is completely assinine.

I actually agree with that (believe it or not! ). Im genuinly worried that the pendulum will swing too far the other direction and will hurt our ability to obtain good information (Is sleep deprivation really torture?). But I guess you could ask well whos fault is that exactly.

That isn't grand standing - that's a fact. And yeah - the paper and news had about his death., Have you heard anything about it in the last couple of days? No - there hasn't been much about it. But the news will put on the same pictures of the iraqis over and over and over again. For how long now - 2 weeks?

well thats basically because its still ongoing remember. Have you heard much about Bush doing cocaine when he was younger recently?

And can you not see the apples and oranges of your posts with you making it out as if the WHOLE US military and government abused the prisoners?

my point is that in the eyes of the iraquis that we are "bringing democary" to and in the eyes of the international community at large, soldiers like Pfc. Lynndie England REPRESENTS the american military at large. And thats a bad thing. And we have BOTH said no no thats not the case to those who would otherwise think that. But the lebonese terrorist who killed Berg doesnt represent the Iraqui citizenry.

Great I'm glad you think that the terrorists should be hunted down and killed. We have a break through - too bad you think that we can just ask them - "are you guilty" and they'll just say "yeah we killed him". If it was only so easy to get the information.

see above about my concerns about getting good information from TRUE insergents and TRUE terrorists now.

Now tell me - WOULD YOU like to go to the Middle East right now? Would you feel safe in Gaza? What about Saudi Arabia?

Im not even sure if Id feel safe in some parts of Mississippi right now. Or Watts for that matter. And theres not a whole lot of crazy muslim wackos in either place. But again whose fault is that exactly? Weve got a generation or more before some of the hatred aimed our way dies down enough to feel safe in many middle east countries now. Its NOT about the common people so much as it is about the extremelly small minority of super dangerous terrorist elements who would be happy to use as to their advantage. Seem deal in places like Columbia or parts of central america. But its not a muslim thing there. So dont confine it to just muslims. Its always a small fringe thats the most dangerous. And then theres a disinfranchised mass who feel we have screwed them over for a long time and are mad at us because of this.

You know - not all civilizations are the same

and you are implying what exactly here...

What I find funny is that you get irritated at the wide brush strokes I painted the Middle East in - but you and your ilk have no problem painting republicans in wide brush strucks all the time.

Well my "ilk" doesnt even paint. He just sits at home and watches cross fire and shakes his head. And Im more a paint by numbers kind of guy. Not much for abstract art really.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I actually agree with that (believe it or not! ). Im genuinly worried that the pendulum will swing too far the other direction and will hurt our ability to obtain good information (Is sleep deprivation really torture?). But I guess you could ask well whos fault is that exactly.

I don't think sleep deprevation is torture. It's a way of disorienting the prisoners.

well thats basically because its still ongoing remember. Have you heard much about Bush doing cocaine when he was younger recently?

So is this the part where I can say how ridiculous it is to compare the cutting off of a 26 year old guys head and the cocaine use of a college student who later happens to become president? the thing is - it is still going on with berg - we haven't gotten the terrorists - as far as I know hiw body isn't even back. So why isn't there any information on his body?

my point is that in the eyes of the iraquis that we are "bringing democary" to and in the eyes of the international community at large, soldiers like Pfc. Lynndie England REPRESENTS the american military at large. And thats a bad thing. And we have BOTH said no no thats not the case to those who would otherwise think that. But the lebonese terrorist who killed Berg doesnt represent the Iraqui citizenry.

There are A LOT more terrorsts in the Middle East than there are soldiers like England in the US military.

see above about my concerns about getting good information from TRUE insergents and TRUE terrorists now.

yeah - I saw. Why the hell do you think I said in the VERY BEGINNING of this thread that those soldiers who abused those iraqis should be tried for treason. Their actions put the WHOLE US in jeopardy as well as the mission. I am extremely pissed off with them as is many in the miliatary - including my brother and my cousin who just joined the marines.

Im not even sure if Id feel safe in some parts of Mississippi right now. Or Watts for that matter. And theres not a whole lot of crazy muslim wackos in either place. But again whose fault is that exactly? Weve got a generation or more before some of the hatred aimed our way dies down enough to feel safe in many middle east countries now. Its NOT about the common people so much as it is about the extremelly small minority of super dangerous terrorist elements who would be happy to use as to their advantage. Seem deal in places like Columbia or parts of central america. But its not a muslim thing there. So dont confine it to just muslims. Its always a small fringe thats the most dangerous. And then theres a disinfranchised mass who feel we have screwed them over for a long time and are mad at us because of this.

Oh yeah - well them teaching hatred in the mosques and madrasas doesn't help. How many schools in the US and I'm talking about sponsored schools like the ones in Saudi Arabia - NOT KKK camps - teach that Jews are dogs and should be killed. You are comparing apples and oranges when comparing Mississippi to the safety of the Middle East. I wouldn't go anywhere near the Middle East.

and you are implying what exactly here...

I'm saying that we don't have to feel that the Middle East is the same level of civilization as the Western world. Hopefully they will be at some point - but right now they are a medieval society stuck in the 21st century. Until they get jobs, until they get a real education, until they get real freedoms - they will always be a backward people. I had hopes for Iran - but after the fiasco with their last elections - Iran is going no where quickly either.

By the way - before you think I'm racist again for my statements. My brother was stationed in Bahrain and will be again in another week - he said the Bahrainis are very nice and always friendly and helpful. I realize NOT ALL Middle Eastern countries are the same. But the tribal lands of Pakistan, Afganistan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia - pretty much fit the bill.

[BeardofPants]

*sigh* The important thing to learn from this debacle is that apparently some members of the US army are culpable of not adhering to the GC. This is not a reflection on the whole US army, nor a reflection upon the American people. HOWEVER, it goes without saying, that this is not an isolated matter, nor is it restricted to a few low-ranking 'hillbillies' (as evidenced by Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay).

Also: consider what they did to the prisoners. Consider the notion of cultural differences. Whilst we westerners may not think much of being paraded around naked, and forced to simulate sex, or rape (!), it is something else altogether to a muslim people. (though, I would argue that being hooded, and forced to strip naked, and enduring sexual force would be something that most of you wouldn't want occurring to yourselves.) And even if you don't believe that the high numbers posted by the Red Cross are true, even so, SOME of these prisoners are innocent. Some innocents would have been subjected to being sodomised, raped, stripped of both their clothes and dignity. And before you go on about so-called intelligence pointing to their guilt, remember this: Colin Powell has had to come forward more than once to rescind previous intelligence leading to the Iraq war. (link) There is supposedly footage of a man being forced to bash himself against the wall. Another of someone being forced to sodomise himself with a broom. Is this better than being beheaded? Really?

All this aside: the US has set itself up as the World Police (whether through its own machinations, or because of apathy of other nations). It has to behave accordingly.

What happened in Iraq, and other prison facilities is an atrocity. At the very least Bush should remove Rumsfeld. And apologise - which he has still not done - for the indignities committed against the prisoners.

Originally posted by Valandil
In their culture, it could be considered that. We must send the message to our prison guards that it was WAY wrong and it BEST not happen again!

*claps*

edited to fix spelling error.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

And it appears the mindset that led to these excesses, embarassment ploys, tortures, call them what you will, originated far above the privates/sargeants carrying them out.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/4386
A Newsweek article: The Roots of Torture: The Road to Abu Ghraib

From the beginning of the above citation:
"May 24 - It's not easy to get a member of Congress to stop talking. Much less a room full of them. But as a small group of legislators watched the images flash by in a small, darkened hearing room in the Rayburn Building last week, a sickened silence descended. There were 1,800 slides and several videos, and the show went on for three hours. The nightmarish images showed American soldiers at Abu Ghraib Prison forcing Iraqis to masturbate. American soldiers sexually assaulting Iraqis with chemical light sticks. American soldiers laughing over dead Iraqis whose bodies had been abused and mutilated. There was simply nothing to say. "It was a very subdued walk back to the House floor," said Rep. Jane Harman, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "People were ashen."

The White House put up three soldiers for court-martial, saying the pictures were all the work of a few bad-apple MPs who were poorly supervised. But evidence was mounting that the furor was only going to grow and probably sink some prominent careers in the process. Senate Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner declared the pictures were the worst "military misconduct" he'd seen in 60 years, and he planned more hearings."