Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Spock
We're not being heavy handed to the majority of the citizens of Iraq. I say we should be heavy handed to those who would kill us.

I think we should stop far short of what we're doing. For one, there are estimates that a high rate of those we have imprisoned there are innocent (some claim as high as 80 or 90%). Now - how you can accurately gauge that, I don't know - but still - it's reasonable to think that SOME of them are innocent. Here in the US, we'd be up-in-arms if the REVERSE were true... if only 10 to 20% of those incarcerated were innocent. We need to be as compassionate to the Iraqis as we are to one another.

Now - this IS a military operation, and it's more complex than rounding up criminals domestically... but still - we must be as fair as we can, as humane as we can, as just as we can.

If we need to dole out harsh punishment - even executions - it must be done with acceptable methods. We're not even talking about that though... these people are being held before even being brought to trial. We've surely caught up some of the good along with the bad - and need to give each the 'benefit of the doubt' to a reasonable extent.

[Spock]

Originally posted by The Gaffer

A question to those who were arguing with Fenir, what do you think of Valandil's view?

V has some good points but as I mentioned to him earlier, "lets get these people trained on how to tell time, then we can teach them how to build a clock."

[Spock]

Originally posted by Valandil
I, as humane as we can, as just as we can. YOU MUST BE KIDDING VAL>we're overwhelmingly humane. Don't flush it all down the toilet because of a really small number of idiots.

We've surely caught up some of the good along with the bad - and need to give each the 'benefit of the doubt' to a reasonable extent.

It's hard when "they dress like a duck, they walk like a duck, they're in a flock of ducks" so we must presume they are ducks until we can safely prove otherwise.

[Spock]

OK people, this makes 1000 for me and that's reason enough to sigh and sign off ....oh, lunch too. Stay well and sane, if possible.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Btw, did you see that the appointed head of the Iraqi government was assinated this morning? Bet it was by one of those soldiers that Fenir is talking about. Doesn't that make it clear that these Iraqi militants, insurgents, and loyalists are doing all that they can to prevent this from becoming a democratic country?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hmmm, you think they'll break if we kill them with kindness?

You're right. In fact we should employ the same techniques right here in America. Go back to the days when you could just beat a confession out of a suspect and not even bother with the trial.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Do you like to watch the Hilter er... History Channel frequently?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Btw, did you see that the appointed head of the Iraqi government was assinated this morning? Bet it was by one of those soldiers that Fenir is talking about. Doesn't that make it clear that these Iraqi militants, insurgents, and loyalists are doing all that they can to prevent this from becoming a democratic country?

Yes - I saw that, and it's discouraging. And yes, all our foes have to do is keep us from creating a democracy there - that's what they're all about.

All the more reason we have to be at our best. We need to get the Iraqi people firmly on our side again. I think we had that for awhile, but we're losing it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes - I saw that, and it's discouraging. And yes, all our foes have to do is keep us from creating a democracy there - that's what they're all about.

All the more reason we have to be at our best. We need to get the Iraqi people firmly on our side again. I think we had that for awhile, but we're losing it.

I understand what you are saying Val. I think though it is much easier for us as spectators to sit back and say what needs to be done, and how things should be handled. I also think it is hard in the position of the coalition to know the good guys from the bad guys. They are facing great danger at the hands of these insurgents that resort to fighting from mosques and holy shrines that are sacred places to the Iraqi people, using them as shields in the hopes that coalition forces will not fire back, but if they do, and destroy these holiest of places, well, then the Iraqi people are upset with the Americans. this is just one example of the sneaky, underhanded methods they resort to that causes retalitory action, making the coalition look bad.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

An editorial article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer illustrates why I find it so depressing to read some of what seem to be essentially espousals of ditching the moral high ground. It's by an anti-Iraq war person, Leonard Pitts, a columnist for the Miami Herald. Some excerpts:

"Maybe the beheading of Nicholas Berg will shut them up. Meaning the people who keep asking why Americans should care about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.....
The answer is so obvious as to be embarassing: Since when are we content to be judged by the moral standards of those whose behavior might be called animalistic, were that not an insult to animals......So by the reasoning of that persistent minority, are we now free to chop off the heads of the Iraqis in our custody? Could we justify it by saying the enemy has done the same? The sad part is, some of us would say yes. The events of the last three years have revealed something poisonous and mean in the American character.....Think Rush Limbaugh claiming American soldiers were only letting off steam. Think Dick Chaney telling critics of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to 'get off his case.'.....It is no surprise, then, that this scandal happens on the watch of the most secretive and ideologically inflexible administration in recent memory. What we see in the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison smacks of license, the freedm to do as one wants under cover of secrecy because one is righteous beyiond all doubt or need for accountability. Where could soldiers and intelligence personnel have gotten that sense of license? It flows from the top down.....It's a fallacy to think we can fight terrorism with its own weapons. We don't fly airplanes into skyscrapers. We don't take hostages and behead them. And we don't- or at least we didn't- abuse prisoners. That's not who we are. And we won't prevail in this struggle by becoming what we abhor: Or by losing faith in our own core values."

[Ultimatejoe]

Can someone explain to me the connection between torturing innocent civilians and all this talk about insurgents? Almost all of the prisoners of Abu Ghraib prison were completely innocent. Of the small portion that wasn't, we have no idea how many were there for civil charges, let alone posessed any intelligence worth taking illegally. There are over 30 million peope in Iraq, and probably no more than 10,000 insurgents (if that.) That's a whopping 0.03% of the population. Are you suggesting that just rounding people up and torturing them is A) effective and B) fair? Tell you what, if you can prove to me that the U.S. forces had cause to suspect the people tortured of having information worth violating the Geneva Conventions, I'll drop the whole thing.

Oh, and by the way, you people seriously need to brush up on your OWN Constitution:

Article 6
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
their actions do not reflect the majority, but our reaction does... that's why we make such a big deal out of it... because it matters to most americans that we constantly strive to live up to our ideals

What do you mean? That you have such a reaction because it would reflect the majority better? (I don't believe you do. I just want an explanation)

[Sister Golden Hair]

"Maybe the beheading of Nicholas Berg will shut them up. Meaning the people who keep asking why Americans should care about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners.....
The answer is so obvious as to be embarassing: Since when are we content to be judged by the moral standards of those whose behavior might be called animalistic, were that not an insult to animals......So by the reasoning of that persistent minority, are we now free to chop off the heads of the Iraqis in our custody? Could we justify it by saying the enemy has done the same?

Well, I don't think that is what Americans, at least Americans on Entmoot are saying. I think what is being said here is that the atrocities committed on the Iraqis by American soldiers is terrible, yes. The beheading of Nick Berg was terrible, yes. Neither is just, neither is acceptable, but let's not downplay one by saying Nick berg got what he got because the Iraqis got what they got, and making the prison incodent to be animalistic and an unexcusable act that cries vengence by beheading a 26 year old kid that was there to help. There is no justification for either episode.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well if it's far right stuff - then it must be wrong right? I don't actually see much of a problem with it. Why should we allow ILLEGAL immigrants in here?

ah yes of course its right. Of course we should pull our troops from all over the world and line them up on the boarders to shoot Mexicans trying to sneak in. (What about those sneaky Canadians though? Oh wait they look like us they are ok).

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
But I also get pretty tired of women coming here from Mexico and having thier babies and being able to collect government benefits just because they were born here.They need to change the laws that apply to that.They don't pay our taxes but they can get the benefits of them.And considering how down so many people are on the way that we do things,if funny that they want to live here .

Last time I checked you weren’t seeing a lot of Mexicans marching through the streets of Mexico City complaining about our troops in Iraq and “how we do things”. And MOST illegal immigrants come here because they are happy to take the menial bottom of the barrel jobs that most Americans turn up their nose to. You gonna blame them for that? Its been clearly established that illegal labor is a major part of our economic force. That’s why Bush proposed this deal that allows them to work here under certain rules and time limits. And for that matter where is the condemnation of the AMERICAN corporations and businesses that make their money on the backs of illegal immigrants and strong arm politicians away from draconian anti-immigration measures? Don’t always look to blame “the other” in every single occasion. Theres plenty of blame to go around here as well.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Valandil
Wow... as one who considers himself a 'conservative Christian' and who most generally votes Republican, I often expect to be considered an 'extremist' in general conversation. However, judging by the stands taken and opinions expressed here, I find that I'm quite definitely a moderate.

Actually I would say your way of thinking here is the very definition of Christian. You do your religion great service by speaking out against things like torture and abuse even in the face of torture and abuse against us. The easy road (and the one apparently taken by quite a few people here and in this country) is the KILL EM ALL! road. Well done for resisting that sad temptation and thinking with a tolerant and sober mind.

1. I think what our soldiers have done in the prison is reprehensible. With this type of mission we have undertaken, I believe it is absolutely essential that we work very hard to maintain the moral high ground. We have not lost that yet, but we have put it to great risk

Indeed. And it is amazing to me how many people seem ignorant of this essential point. It is NOT about THEM. It is about US. Do you really want to teach your children that its ok to be brutal and bullyish to others simply because they don’t play nice themselves? Do they just don’t get the colossal hypocrisy of invading a country to free it of a dictator and trumpeting ourselves as the true bringer of democracy and civilization and then turning around and saying hey its ok to do these horrible things to Iraqis because elements in their country do horrible things to us? Do we really want to justify our mistakes by trying desperately to compare them to atrocities committed by others? I sure hope not. We are better then that. No matter what they do to us we need to CONTINUE to be better then that. We have the overwhelming power here. If we force “democracy” on them at the end of a gun (or a leash) we have lost completely our moral stand. And we will have let the terrorists win.

5. It may be good to at least CONSIDER dividing up the country, rather than remaining committed to a single, unified Iraq. These people-groups do not naturally go together anyway. Let's consider a separate Kurdish land in the north, a Sunni land in the middle and a Shiite land in the south... and try to give them some reasons to get along and work together... shared benefits of natural resources (oil) or something. If that would be possible.

I don’t know about that. That would cause all sorts of other problems. Youd have possible war between the sunis and the Shiite and youd sure have The Turks upset with us letting the Kurds have their own country let alone they own autonomous land area. Plus this is the road we went down with Yugoslavia remember. And that didn’t work out too well.

[Spock]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
Almost all of the prisoners of Abu Ghraib prison were completely innocent.

WHERE DO GET THE STUFF YOUR SMOKIN? You've no basis for that statement and blanket caveats like that are just what the media and enemies of the coalition constantly spout.

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe

Tell you what, if you can prove to me that the U.S. forces had cause to suspect the people tortured of having information worth violating the Geneva Conventions, I'll drop the whole thing.

...remember the ducks..... ]

[Sister Golden Hair]

The easy road (and the one apparently taken by quite a few people here and in this country) is the KILL EM ALL! road.

Well, as you know, for me, that was a anger reflex over the Berg murder, and I stated as much. The view taken here, is both incodents are horrible, both are wrong, but don't downplay the brutality of one and build up the brutality of the other. The incodent at the prison is being handled and these soldiers are being punished, but maybe everyone would feel better about the US if we just took those soldiers and slowly beheaded them like what was done to Berg. Bet that would fix everything then, and we would be one big happy world.

[Spock]

...you mean like "kill 'em all and let God/Allah sort them out" ?
..

..or "nuke their a** and take the gas"......

......no one resembling me ever said exactly like that for recorded purposes during an eighteen minute segment

[Insidious Rex]

To the Republican/Bush supporters out there I have a genuinly serious question. How has the past month or so (the prison scandle and the reaction of the pres and Rummsfield and company, the Berg killing, the various other things that have been going on in Iraq) effected your concern over how the current administration is handling affairs:

1. Its only strengthened my opinion that Bush is handling things the right way and well.
2. It hasnt effected my opinion one way or another.
3. My opinion on how the administration is handling this has taken a hit but by no means am I going to bail out on them let alone even condemn it.
4. Ive had some serious second thoughts on things recently. But Im not quite sure if its gone so far as to change my point of view fundamentaly.
5. Ive grown seriously sinicle on the whole affair and horribly disapointed. I dont think the current administration really has control over the situation as I used to. And perhaps Im even thinking about not voting for Bush or at least not voting at all.
6. Im so effected by this that I have decided to change my vote.

just genuinly curious. No agendas to make here. No tricks. Just wondering how its effected those who have been supporters of the current administration. And if none of those choices quite do the trick then feel free to alter the one most closely along the lines of your own. Or say "Im between 3 and 4" or something like that.

[brownjenkins]

great points Val... i think people forget all too often that just as our soldiers actions are those of a minority... so our the actions of the terrorists... my guess is that a majority of those living in iraq are just like most of us... more concerned with the well-being of their friends and families then anything else

[Spock]

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Have you ever noticed how some days you just get washed over by the sense of cosmic emptiness and lack of meaning?