origin of orcs

[cassiopeia]

Didn't he change his mind because he couldn't explain, if orcs came from elves, if they went to the halls of mandos? If elves went to the halls of Mandos when they were slain, did orcs as well?

[Ñólendil]

He changed his mind about the whole mythology because he felt in our day and age, no one could have even serious Secondary belief in his "primitive" mythology. It had to be "scientific". But as for the specific matter of Orcs not being from Elves, I don't know. The earliest quote from Tolkien about it is simply "Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish". There's a lot of writings on this in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, VIII-X.

The first one was written in the mid-50s and I now see it provides a reason for the change:

Their [Orcs'] nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.
(1) As the case of Aulë and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel agasint him, or criticize him.
(2) ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something pre-existing.
(3) But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs already existed. Aule constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Musicl but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?)

It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to cotemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. [Added later: This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]

In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly impolied in The Lord of the Ringsp that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with my Melkor.

The short essay continues. The final text is longer, I'll work on it and post it here.

[Ñólendil]

I've typed it out now. For those of you who have Morgoth's Ring, stop being lazy and open your book For the rest of you, here it is, Tolkien's final Orc-idea/essay:

Orcs

The origin of the Orcs is a matter of debate. Some have called them the MelkorohÃ*ni, the Children of Melkor; but the wiser say: nay, the slaves of Melkor, but not his children, for Melkor has no children. Nonetheless, it was by the malice of Melkor that the Orcs arose, and plainly they were meant by him to be a mockery of the Children of Eru, being bred to be wholly subservient to his will and filled with unappeasable hatred of Elves and Men.

Now the Orcs of the later wars, after the escape of Melkor-Morgoth and his return to Middle-earth, were not 'spirits', nor phantoms, but living creatures, capable of speech and some crafts and organization; or at least capable of learning these things from higher creatures and from their Master. They bred and multiplied rapidly, whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Oromë to Cuiviénen.

Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar. For though the time of the awakening of Men is snot known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs. On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth had at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assaults for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfer of their hosts westward.

This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. In accords wit hall that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of Orcs -- and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets: his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it were to destroy themselves.

But the Orcs were not of this kind. They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, and they were aware of this fear and hated him. They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelly or wickedness that they would not commit; but thus was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their deeds. They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; of if Morgoth and his agents were far away they might neglect his commands. They sometimes fought [>They hated one another and often fought] among themselves, to the detriment of Morgoth's plans.

Moreover, the Orcs continued to live and breed and to carry on their business of ravaging and plundering after Morgoth was overthrown. They had other characteristics of the Incarnates also. They languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues according to differences of breed that were discernible among them. They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.

This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men. *

Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for master committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men,

*[footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought wit h the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. * This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thralldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.

This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Ages under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days. But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Midde-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and

*[footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did o in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that they Elves were crueler than themselves, taking captives only for "amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).

had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. * And he proved even more skillful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction.

It is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology. Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavouring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth. While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice. ...

[Ñólendil]

... We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the design of Eru. They details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.

When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Midde-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that when they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all that dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves. It was Sauron, also, who secretly repaired Angband for the help of his Master when he returned; and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of the Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair. And though Angband has fallen and Morgoth is removed, still they come forth from the lightless places in the darkness of their hearts, and the earth is withered under their pitiless feet.

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.

So there we have it.

[azalea]

Thank you for posting that! That answers a lot of questions.

[emplynx]

I hate to bust everyone's bubbles but being the literalist that I am I have to tell you
Orcs arn't real.

*Runs away to hid from the beating he knows he will get*

[azalea]

Originally posted by emplynx
I hate to bust everyone's bubbles but being the literalist that I am I have to tell you
Orcs arn't real.

Thank goodness!

[Ñólendil]

Ah, emplynx, you poor soul. It is precisely because they are not real and precisely because they are yet realistic (to their own reality) that I find them so interesting. If they were real I should be horrified by them and would take comfort in the apparent fact that they are no longer around to trouble the world. Or if they weren't realistic to their own reality I would find no interest in the meaningless essays about their chaotic origins (not anymore than I would be interested in Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum).

Orcs are real, that's just the thing you need to know. They are real to themselves, they have an inner consistency of reality. So do not think us silly or misguided or sad (as those whose fortunes are less than your own), consider us insiders. We believe on a second level. You should too.

[emplynx]

Wow, Ñólendil for being such a ladies man you a still a bright guy. That was a transcendently impressive answer. Thank you, I stand corrected.

[Ñólendil]

I'm not a ladies man, I've just sort of found someone who doesn't mind seeing a total geek. Actually I like to keep the "geek" thing on the down-low I'm Dylan Standlea by day, Ñolendil of Entmoot by night.

Thank you very much for the compliment. What's impressive to me is anyone admitting mistake. I rarely notice anyone (including myself) doing that.

[Blackheart]

He's correct orcs are not real. The do not exist.

quit looking for us.. er them.

*gives Emplynx is 20 silver peices*

[Wayfarer]

the awakening of Men is snot

I think this statement reveals much about the real extent o f Gnolondil's information. ]: )

I think we've neglected to mention the largest difficulty with corrupting elves into orcs. And that is that elves, even when corrupted (Feanor, Maeglin) remain 'elvish'. They do not fall into the wanton debasement of the orcs, but more of a refined corruption. They're white collar criminals, rather than street thugs.

Again, they were also more resistant to corruption. They were never turned, only misled and led astray.

Recall Turin's friend. He was capured by Morgoth and imprisoned for decades. When he escaped, he was worn, and aged-I dare say quite 'orcish' to behold-yet, rather than be defiled, he was wiser for his ordeal. Elves have never bowed before the Dark Lords.

However, orcs are very unlike men in some ways. They are cunning and shrewd, and cruel, whereas evil men tend to be stupid and violent.

Also, physically, they seem to resemble faded or fading elves. Indeed, the descriptions of them resemple the goblins of english mythology (albiet larger). Half-breeds were much stronger and bolder than full blooded orcs.

Therefore, let me posit a scenario of my own:

I think it is likely that Morgoth did capture and imprison elves in the forst age. And he did turn them over to Sauron, who attempted to corrupt them. But, judging from what we know of the noldor who suffered this fate, it is unlikely that he met with great sucess. Some, perhaps, but nothing spectacular. And so he turned to the more easily corrupted men, and integrated thier bloodlines with elves.

A mingling of races is probobly the most satisfactory scenario. After all, what really made Celebrian leave town so fast?

Consider the Numenoreans, and especially thier royal house. They were descended from Elros, a half elf. And yet they were deeply corrupted.

Speaking of the numenoreans, there is one more attrbute in which orcs were like elves-they did not fear death. Men, under the shadow, were terrified of dying. Orcs were pretty willing to throw their lives away.

As for tolkien's question of how the corruption could be inherited, I don't think that's a difficult question to answer. Feanor's sons inherited his flaws, maeglin inherited his dark personality from eol. And in our own world, nastiness tends to be inheritable. How do you think you'd turn out if you were raised by orcs?

[Ñólendil]

I think this statement reveals much about the real extent o f Gnolondil's information.

I'll except your criticism when you can spell my name right. It's Ngólendil (or Ñólendil) not Gnolondil. Your love of Sindarin is your only excuse and it is not a very good one, as my name is spelled out for you on all my posts.

They do not fall into the wanton debasement of the orcs, but more of a refined corruption.

They do or did in the old conception, whereby Morgoth physically corrupted the Elves as well.

Again, they were also more resistant to corruption. They were never turned, only misled and led astray.

That's always been a matter of debate. I've seen the argument a lot on Entmoot. I always think of all the Elves that were captured by Melkor and sent forth again as willing spies (admittedly out of fear), all the Northern Sindar that he actually used as spies, and individual characters like Fëanáro and Maeglin. Fëanáro and Maeglin became corrupt, come on now. Faenor became "fell and fey", but much more than that, it's a very long list. Maeglin became a very cold-hearted and jealous person (and not without the bad form of pride). He didn't like anyone else getting in "his way", he didn't like anyone else (like Huor and Húrin) winning the favor of the King (Turgon), and he wasn't fond of the idea of anyone else's greatness either. And he had that unlawful desire for his cousin Idril, it drove him to mad lengths. Between her and the Man that won her heart, and their destined child, he decided to make a deal with the Devil himself. Morgoth asked him to undermine resistance to Gondolin if he could, and to murder Tuor and his baby Eärendil, winning Idril and the Kingship of Gondolin as a reward. Maeglin became evil, he wasn't a nice guy that was misled, if you mean to tell me he was a good person that thought he was doing the right thing.

Elves have never bowed before the Dark Lords.

Whole Elvish peoples have not, but I think something else can be said of individuals.

whereas evil men tend to be stupid and violent.

Such as the Mouth of Sauron, or Tar-Calion the Golden? Yes, very unintelligent people, not very cunning at all. Just the sort of guys that would get in drunken bar fights.

Also, physically, they seem to resemble faded or fading elves.

Dear, dear, Wayfarer, if you want to make fun of my post (full of Tolkien's words, mostly), you can at least try not to blunder so much yourself. Faded Elves don't look. Air resembles a faded Elf, and one that is fading would perhaps best be likened to glass. Faded Elves' bodies are invisible, they become completely part of the Unseen World, like the Ringwraiths.

I think it is likely that Morgoth did capture and imprison elves in the forst age.

Did I miss something? I just finished quoting Tolkien's final essay on Orcs. He said they came from Men and that it was Sauron who first achieved it (though it was Melkor who first conceived of it). Tolkien ruled out the possibility of Elves.

Consider the Numenoreans, and especially thier royal house. They were descended from Elros, a half elf. And yet they were deeply corrupted.

Many of the Númenoreans descended from Elros were corrupted (and many were corrupted who had no relation to Elros), but many were not. There were many long years of peace in Númenor before the Shadow fell.

As for tolkien's question of how the corruption could be inherited, I don't think that's a difficult question to answer. Feanor's sons inherited his flaws, maeglin inherited his dark personality from eol. And in our own world, nastiness tends to be inheritable. How do you think you'd turn out if you were raised by orcs?

If I was raised by Orcs, or I was born of an Orkish woman? If you're talking about being raised and taught, than you are not talking about flaws being inherited, as Curufin getting his flaws from Faenor or Maeglin from Eöl. But Tolkien was questioning the possibility of Melkor being able to corrupt and ruin and entire people, spiritually and corporeally, and then make that state heritable.

Anyhow he came up with a solution, what's your problem with it? There's loads of problems, of course, if you don't like the idea of the new mythology.

[Blackheart]

I think most of you are missing the real point.

It doesn't matter what original stock Uruk were corrupted from. The process could have been used on elves, men, hobbits, possibly even dwarves.

Orc or orcus is an evil corpse. Basically the real evil of orcs is that they are living corpses. They have no soul.

It's not for nothing that Sauron is also called "The Necromancer".

[Ñólendil]

I think we're getting the point pretty well, my good Xandre, take a look at the title of the thread.

Here's the last note on Orcs in Myths Transformed, it was written after the brief essay I posted on the page 1:

Orcs
This spelling was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning -- so far as that is known -- is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a Common Speech form of a word of group of similar words should be ork. If only because of spelling difficulties in modern English: an adjective becomes necessary, and orcish will not do. In any future publication I shall use ork.

This note was written in 1969 or later. In the older texts when Orcs came from Elves (an idea that I guess I should stress was abandoned), Ælfwine explains the usage of the name in the Annals of Aman:

We may call them Orcs, because they were strong and fell as demons, even though they were not in fact demons.

Christopher Tolkien comments:

In a letter of my father's written on 25 April 1954 (Letters no.144) he said that the word Orc 'is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc "demon", but only because of its phonetic suitability' (and also: 'Orcs ... are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be "corruptions"').

So according to all this, "Orc" means "demon", not "evil corpse". In any case Tolkien said this meaning isn't suitable, so who's missing the point?

[Tar-Elendil]

Many of the Númenoreans descended from Elros were corrupted (and many were corrupted who had no relation to Elros), but many were not. There were many long years of peace in Númenor before the Shadow fell.

and i thought people just totally overlooked that! :P Ñólendil makes a good argument.

[Ñólendil]

Thanks. Unfortunately I'm arguing with these dung-heads. They'll drag you through the muck to get their points across and Blackheart usually wins. Wayfarer just gets covered with muck.

[Blackheart]

Dung head is it?

Thrak-kû gimb uruk-bag!

So tell me. What's the real difference between an evil corpse and a demon? Or a soulless corruption, for that matter?

Pretty much all fit the bill, when you are looking at the true nature of orcs.

Just because they multiply after the manner of men, doesn't mean that they can't be "abominations".

I presume by your objection to "evil corpse" you thought I was advocating that they are some form of undead. Not true.

As far as anyone knows, they don't have a "gathering place" after death. They may have "independant wills" but thet are irredemable, in that they do not have free will to perform "good" acts. Free will seems to be one of the requirements for a "soul", from every shred of information I've been able to gather. So I see no contradiction in the fact that orcs are soulless, "dead" corpses. They are alive, but "dead" on the inside. Thus the "evil corspe".

As for the original stock, I still don't think it matters. It could have been men, or elves, or some mixture. It's probable that orcs had "infusions" of different racial stocks at many times over the course of history.

I certainly think Sauron would have tried elves first, before men, just because of the fact that it would have been easier to obtain subjects.

Though I do agree that it was probably Sauron who achieved it. He was the "necromancer" and an artificer who could rival the best of them.

It also begs the question, who bred the dragons, and the Trolls?

It states fairly clearly that the dragons were bred by Morgoth, but that doesn't mean he didn't delegate it also.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I'll except your criticism when you can spell my name right. It's Ngólendil (or Ñólendil) not Gnolondil. Your love of Sindarin is your only excuse and it is not a very good one, as my name is spelled out for you on all my posts.

Except it, then, old friend. ]: )

Originally posted by Ñólendil
They do or did in the old conception, whereby Morgoth physically corrupted the Elves as well.

Mmmm Hmmm. I thought this entire discussion was about how much the incomplete new conception supercedes the old one?

Originally posted by Ñólendil
That's always been a matter of debate. I've seen the argument a lot on Entmoot.

It was never my intention to excuse them. Indeed, I feel as strongly as E-Elf that 'feanor was a ****'. But the disctinction i'm trying to make is between evil elves-who became corrupt in and of themselves, and the orcs, whose will had been literally crushed.

This is a quandry that often puzzles me. Sauron's orcs were so strongly in his grasp, that when he fell they threw down thie weapons and fled (or something to that effect). I really don't think that the orcs were inherently evil. They were either under the influence of some other evil, or debased in the same way that men may be. But if you, say, cloned an orc, would it turn out nasty whatever the upbringing? I know that the individual orcs we see are irredemably corrupted, but have they always been irredeemable? Or is that something that they grow into throughout their lives?

That tangent having been marked off, perhaps what meant to say was dominated. I do not believe Sauron could not have dominated elves the way he did orcs. But I can believe it of men. Look at smeagol. Look at grima.

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Whole Elvish peoples have not, but I think something else can be said of individuals.

There is sense in that. Perhaps you are right.

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Such as the Mouth of Sauron, or Tar-Calion the Golden? Yes, very unintelligent people, not very cunning at all. Just the sort of guys that would get in drunken bar fights.

You've got me there. ]: ) I shall try and be more like samwise in the future.

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Dear, dear, Wayfarer, if you want to make fun of my post (full of Tolkien's words, mostly), you can at least try not to blunder so much yourself. Faded Elves don't look. Air resembles a faded Elf, and one that is fading would perhaps best be likened to glass. Faded Elves' bodies are invisible, they become completely part of the Unseen World, like the Ringwraiths.

Fading elves. Did they not become smaller of stature in middle earth throughout the ages of Middle Earth?

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Did I miss something? I just finished quoting Tolkien's final essay on Orcs. He said they came from Men and that it was Sauron who first achieved it (though it was Melkor who first conceived of it). Tolkien ruled out the possibility of Elves.

No. The more I think about it, the more I agree with him. Elves wouldn't have worked very well.

But he almost certainly captured elves in the first age.

If I was raised by Orcs, or I was born of an Orkish woman? If you're talking about being raised and taught, than you are not talking about flaws being inherited, as Curufin getting his flaws from Faenor or Maeglin from Eöl. But Tolkien was questioning the possibility of Melkor being able to corrupt and ruin and entire people, spiritually and corporeally, and then make that state heritable.

They are both valid questions. How much would an orc raised by humans resemble a human raised by orcs?

You must understand that it's hard to seperate the nature and the nurture in most cases. Did the Sons of feanor share thier fathers flaws due to genetics, or simply his influence? You must remember that a number of other elves were touched by feanor's madness.

As for maeglin, well, his father did try to spear him when he was a teenager. I don't suppose that would brighten my demeanor. ]: )

The physical twisting of orcs is different. But think: How did Morgoth twist his servants? By imbuing them with himself, with the Morgoth element. That may have been enough to let him alter the genetic structure, or it may have itself passed to the offspring, although in that case the orcs should have become weaker and less evil throughout the years (although I don't see any around today, so it's a distinct possibility. The dragons weakened in that manner).

My problem with orcs is mostly that of ability. They were most like men in their corruption, but they seem to have the keen senses of elves, and some of the unflagging stamina as well. They were alos, as a rule, very skilled craftsmen, and very clever. Things like that.

[Blackheart]

<I really don't think that the orcs were inherently evil. They were either under the influence of some other evil, or debased in the same way that men may be. But if you, say, cloned an orc, would it turn out nasty whatever the upbringing? I know that the individual orcs we see are irredemably corrupted, but have they always been irredeemable? Or is that something that they grow into throughout their lives? >

There is a period of history you can use for observation. Between Sauron's fall in the second age, and his rise in the third age, there was no "dark lord" to guide the orks. Did they develop any redeming characteristics during this rather lengthy period?

Not that I can see. I don't think they were capable of harboring any altruistic impulses. Genetically.

Even if you removed an orc from it's "culture" and raised it in a human culture, the best you could hope for is a criminal that operated according to some kind of debased "honor" system.. Like: I don't kill my firends... And I don't steal from my friends etc.