Suspected bomber shot in London

[Millane]

Originally Posted by Spock

..And what part of "running when Police asked you to stop in a language you knew well for at least 5 yrs., vaulting over turnstile to get away from police" didn't you understand.?

how the **** does that relate to what bish said
most people are just speculating on why the guy ran and bish put forward another (valid) explanation... id probably run if guys pulled out guns too, i havent been in that situation before thank god but im pretty sure i would be paying to much attention to what they were saying even if it was in English.

[Spock]

OK. You are not in New York. You are in England. No hand guns. Normal police have NO hand GUNS. Citizens have NO hand GUNS. Guns are hardly ever used by criminals in street crime. Street crime by groups is not rampant. Several men shouting "stop police" and carrying hand guns approach you; it is reasonable to assume they are police.
Of course if your visa is in overstay status, as this guys was, you might not want to have the police question you but the mere presence of guns should make one think about running. It goes against all logic, after a series of bombings.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Millane

how the **** does that relate to what bish said
.

the reply was out of synch with another poster, not related to bish

[Butterbeer]

what does that mean?

the reply was out of synch with another poster, not related to bish

I seems to relate very fairly and squarely to me.

[Insidious Rex]

Well this is rather distressing... it seems PERHAPS that the picture originally painted about this event was vastly different from actuality.

Tube shooting family inquiry call

"Clearly we now know that Jean Charles was doing absolutely nothing to arouse any suspicion, he was just unfortunate to be living in a block of flats that was under surveillance and to look slightly brown skinned."

[Lotesse]

This exact kind of thing happens in L.A. at LEAST once a week, I kid you not. I mean, it is NEVER news here, sadly. Cops are constantly shooting whomever they feel they need to, for whatever "reason," and three quarters of the time the guy (or girl, or kid) was completely innocent of anything. F=--cking cops. But I am surprised to see English cops doing this; it just seems awfully out-of-character for English cops to act like the LAPD. Go figure.

[Spock]

I think the fact that the UK police "don't act" like LAPD is part of this. They don't face what we do here in the US and under the circumstances the error was on the side of society.

[The Gaffer]

According to today's reports, the squaddie doing surveillance of the house had gone for a slash when the bloke left the block of flats, and therefore wasn't able to confirm his identity to his colleagues.

[Butterbeer]

everyone needs to Pee!

but that's not the point: i do not know ALL the build-up or intelligence, but to me the key point is at that final, fatal momment, rushing down in hot pursuit, which let's face it, happened over an adrenalin-filled intense period of time, with someone diving onto a tube train, at that particular time of heightened intensity ... i cannot see any blame for an officer, under strict rules of engagement and having no choice but to make an instantaneous and imperative call of judgment: whether to risk the life of one, at that precise momment, very supsect life (he had run and run and dived onto a tube train) and those of potentially 50 -100 other innocent lives ... i cannot see how,in truth, anyone of sound mind could to do any other than follow his training and orders at a time of extremely HIGH alert, but to do what he did.

Lottesse:

But I am surprised to see English cops doing this; it just seems awfully out-of-character for English cops to act like the LAPD. Go figure.

They don't generally. But in this one-off highly charged situation ... i would only be suprised if they hadn't. Of course it proved an innocent tragedy - but why in this instance should you be suprised? Tell me Lotesse: what would you do - if you thought the threat was real, very real and you were forced to make a snap call to weigh up the costs to innocent lives, including your own?

For myself, i know what call i would have made.


Spock:

I think the fact that the UK police "don't act" like LAPD is part of this. They don't face what we do here in the US and under the circumstances the error was on the side of society.

I agree the error was on the side of society. Therefore it is only an error in terms of the innocent victim and his friends and family ... (o.k. that of course is enough and to us all of course) but i do not see it as an error on behalf of the call that HADE to be made by a human being trained to do a job of protecting the public, at that mortal momment.

And there are differences, especially in terms of gun-related crime between the US and the UK ... but i don't think the Met (or the security forces as a whole) here are unused to serious crime, or terrorism, or are wet behind the ears, or that this was a factor at all - to me unfortunate as it was, the only and right decision was made.

I am unclear if you are saying that the LAPD should therefore be a role model to the MET? Or that we are naive and plodding Dixons of Dock Green over here? or back-water small-town sherrifs?

I suspect not, but it is a tad unclear!

best
BB

[Lotesse]

BB, the LAPD should NEVER, EVER, EVER be a role model for anyone, ever, ever, ever. Period.

Just thought I'd clear up that one little point.

[Butterbeer]

well, i'm glad we agree.... though i can only conjecture on the LAPD, from what you imply...

Anyway, though ... you didn't answer my question!

What would you have done?

[Lotesse]

I'm not a cop, so I cannot say what I would have done.

[Butterbeer]

Nor am i.

But i can make a call if i need to, and live by it. that's life.

I believe you are capable of making decisions and trusting your own judgement lotesse ... so IF... (and it is only hypothetical) ... what WOULD you have done?

To me, no matter the general views or down the line detached debate (which is fair enough to be sure) ... that is the only real question here.

So...

[Lotesse]

If he wasn't shooting at me, I wouldn't start shooting at him. I got no beef with some guy running away from me. And since I am not a cop, and do not have a cop's desire to "catch suspects", well, then that's the best answer I can give you. I wouldn't even have been chasing him.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Wouldn't you run and get scared if foreign people were shouting at you and pointing guns at you?

Abso-friggin'-lutely.

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

They had to shoot a guy with no weopon 5 times?

They do it here in LA all the time, those cops get all amped up and just start pluggin' away, all high on their adrenalin I presume.

[Butterbeer]

O.k. fair enough, o' most noble yet evasive lottesse! (ref the post but one)

However .., the question is not are you a "cop" or police officer? , etc, not whether a potential bomber happens to be shooting at you...

... not that

I got no beef with some guy running away from me

... maybe that's a common day occurence! (i'm kidding!)


... heh - you set em' up ...

...


the question is HYPOTHETICAL ... for a second put yourself in that hard position ... theres a very real danger that you, yourself, your colleagues and friends, and many, many innocent passengers will at any second as he dives onto the tube train be blown to smitherenes ... people killed, limbs blown asunder, hearing shattered, blood flowing... ripples of hurt, worry and despair rippling out to family, loved ones and friends... rippling out to the City, community and Country beyond... to the international community etc etc


C'mon lottesse. i know you have the balls, the intelligence and the independence to make a call ... stop evading the question :

what would you have done IF hypothetically you were in the same life or death situation?

*shines imaginary spotlight on lottesse*


best
BB

[Lotesse]

I loathe hypothetical questioning. Can't stand it. Won't do it.


By the way, Butterbeer, you're excellent at "leading", you know it? For real, but it won't work on me buddy You should think of pursuing a career as a defense attorney!

[Butterbeer]

well, you might have pointed that out earlier!

How about anti-hypothetcial "questioning"?


... questioning?

Tis' but a debate, a meeting and mooting of ideas and views, my dear...

aw' crap! cmon' stop avoiding the Ques- ... i mean don't be a debate owl on a fence!

Best
BB

[Lotesse]

Well, o.k., since you put it that way, I won't be an owl on the fence!
I would have shot the guy once in the foot or kneecap, and felled him. And yes, I AM that good of a shot, been range-shooting with my beretta 9mm since childhood. (Dad gave me the gun.)

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

: I loathe hypothetical questioning. Can't stand it. Won't do it.



(edit):

By the way, Butterbeer, you're excellent at "leading", you know it? For real, but it won't work on me buddy You should think of pursuing a career as a defense attorney! :

leading? what some sort of solicitor?

defence? Actually yeah i can see that .. kinda turn it back around kinda thing???? Sorry thought i was on the offensive, i mean pro-active debate there!


won't work on you?

GIVE ME TIME!

heh!


... still think you should answer the question though! (heh, it'd just save time all round y'know! ... for real!)

What do other mooters think (don't worry - you do not have to do jury service ): what would you have done in the poor policeman's position?

Also in the poor victim's position? ...

... Knowing that a sustained and highly targeted bombing and terrorism campaign was going on at that very time on the underground - would you have run, and if so contiuned running so long, being pursued by police - let's be clear - he spoke english - he knew after some quick reflection, even after any initial panic ref his visa, that they were Police - he knew about the bombings - it's a long way down to,even at speed, to the platforms, esp when your mind is racing ... you can figure out it ain't no visa operation for christs sake ... even Dumb Donald the dreadfully Dim could have worked that out!

anyone wants to argue different had better be prepared to be full-on in this particular regard....


nothing like a challenge eh?

seriously though, you do, sadly, have to consider that angle.