Al qaeda: what they want....

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think that's where the problem lies: the fanatics don't necessarily see it as 'saving', they rather see it as attempts on bringing our western life-style to their countries - which of course they see as a threat to Islam (just look at what it has done to Christianity).

Spain may have been singled out because it was an easy target and their leader supported the invasion of Iraq. Why the meaningless violence? I've no idea.....

That doesn't explain that france is targeted - France is targeted for making laws in it's OWN country - even though I disagree with those laws. But France has found bombs along it's rail lines and is being currently threatened by Al Qaeda.

Only a couple of weeks ago it was released that a very detailed written plan was discovered in Indonesia that spelled out Al Qaeda's plan to take over the world and to conquer the west. One of the key things was to seperate the US from it's allies. It's sort of scary - because it seems to be somewhat working.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Gee, what's the fun of a thread like this when everyone's making such intelligent and reasonable points?

Hey, we're trying to keep this thread OPEN. Anti-Americanism, country bashing and personal insults are not allowed here. Go make your own thread for that.

Just like to add: these guys are looking back at the Golden Age of Islam, when the West (Europe) was a stagnant backwater and wondering how the situation has reversed itself.
Since thay are the possessors of the True Faith, it obviously must be someone else's fault.

It never seems to occur to them that, in their days of glory, Damascus and Baghdad, Cairo and Cordoba, were the most open, cosmopolitan, tolerant and enlightened societies around- and that they are the equivalent of the backhill and deep desert tribesman who came screaming down to purify the Faithful by burning the libraries and destroying the gardens and aqueducts.

Eloquent as always, GM. And very enlightening.

I haven't studied much Middle East history. I do remember some point in history when Islam went through a "purifying" phase and libraries were burned and such for being blasphemous.

About when was this? Is there any more you can share?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think this is correct. An extreme fundamental muslim has as enemy everything which threatens the traditional, religious lifestyle and society, which the Western world in modern times strongly does. Muslim countries are influenced by the USA and Europe through TV and radio, internet, more people are travelling, and so on. I think al qaeda sees this as THE danger. Therefore are they making war on us, using terrorism as their weapon. I also think USA is a convenient country to point a finger on, in order to recruit members to their organization.

Nicely put, Arty.

I think this helps in my understanding a bit more.

Isn't it an individual's choice to expose themselves to those influences, though? What I'm saying is, if a muslim doesn't want those European/American influences in their home, they don't have to watch those TV channels, buy those products, listen to those radio stations, etc. Why attack another people for what they choose to expose themselves to?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Fat middle
This is sort of off-topic, but I'm posting it here to avoid starting a new thread of similar topic.

Perhaps some of you have already read about it... I think you all know that after the March 11th attacks of Madrid, the Spanish Police beban to make detentions. They've catch 18 people (all them muslims, mainly from Morocco). The last of them (3 or 4) were not exactly caught: they were surrounded by the GEOs (our SWAT forces) but they exploded a bomb killing themselves and also one of the GEOs

But the more sadly thing is that two weeks after (I think it was last Sunday) some people assalted the tomb of the dead GEO and also burned his dead body

Why all this hate? Arty's reasons about our culture influence in their countries seems not enough for me...

I didn't know what happened afterward! Damn, that is so sad. Why would they burn a dead GEO's body? What purpose did that serve other than to hurt the family even more?

I heard that Moraccans were being held as suspects, though. I didn't know about the bomb that took the life of 3 or 4 and the GEO also.

My sympathies to your country, Fat Middle.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yeah - look at how they bombed that school van killing all those children. They have no problem killing innocent people at all - not even children.

That was in Basra. So sad. 10 boys and girls on their way to kindergarten in a minivan, and 8 girls on their way to high school in another minivan. Who would do something so callous?

Also killed were 18 Iraqi police, as the 5 car bombs were set to go off near Basra's police station at the height of rush hour. I suppose their goal was to take out as many Iraqis, who were on their way to work, as possible. Basra is under Brittish coalition control, and when the coalition forces ran to help at the blast, Iraqis threw stones at them. WTF? I honestly do not understand the Iraqis. If someone was blowing up my fellow countrymen, kids and cops, I'd be right there trying to get rid of them. Not throwing stones at people who are trying to give me my country back.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think that's where the problem lies: the fanatics don't necessarily see it as 'saving', they rather see it as attempts on bringing our western life-style to their countries - which of course they see as a threat to Islam (just look at what it has done to Christianity).

Spain may have been singled out because it was an easy target and their leader supported the invasion of Iraq. Why the meaningless violence? I've no idea.....

And what has it done to Christianity? Actually, many fundamental Christians turn off their TV and spend a lot of time reading their bible and such. They dress modestly, etc. They CHOOSE that lifestyle. It's not like someone burst into their home and put a TV and radio in their house and forced them to watch MTV and listen to hip hop on the radio.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I didn't know what happened afterward! Damn, that is so sad. Why would they burn a dead GEO's body? What purpose did that serve other than to hurt the family even more?

I heard that Moraccans were being held as suspects, though. I didn't know about the bomb that took the life of 3 or 4 and the GEO also.

My sympathies to your country, Fat Middle.

Thank you!

Well, not all Moroccans are held as suspects. There are LOTS of Moroccans in Spain. The Morocco government have collaborated with our Police to find the terrorists.

[brownjenkins]

i think one more perspective needs to be added here... much like the nazi leadership in ww2 and the general german populace who followed them... there is the al qaeda, and there are the millions of muslims who support or sympathize with them in some way

while i have no sympathy whatsoever for the hardcore al qaeda and their tactics, there are "valid" reasons for the support they receive (and by valid, i don't necessarily mean right, but understandable)

a large reason why the nazis were so easily accepted by the general german populace pre-ww2 was because they offered a solution to all the problems that arised from the prejudices and economic oppression which all germans were subject to post-ww1... yes, their tactics were more than brutal, but if you watch your family die off one by one due to poverty and oppression, i think it can be quite easy to lose that sense or right and wrong that many of us take for granted in the fairly "easy" lifestyles we lead... and to turn to extremist religious viewpoints... when you have little in this world, the only place to look for salvation is the afterlife

many argue that it is not about money... which is true to an extent... al qaeda leadership is mostly rich and educated... but so are most other leaders, it is their talents that allow them to rise to such a position... however, the fact that they are a group with such widespread support, as opposed to a few thousand malcontents, has everything to do with the lack of economic and political freedom among those who support them

i'm all for hunting the leadership and operatives down, but a permanent solution to the problem must involve bringing social and economic freedoms to the general populace muslim world... not just changing the owners of the oil rigs from those who hate the US to those who like the US

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Thank you!

Well, not all Moroccans are held as suspects. There are LOTS of Moroccans in Spain. The Morocco government have collaborated with our Police to find the terrorists.

*snicker* Yeah, I'm sure.

My fault for not being clear in what I had said. I meant, that the suspects held in custody by the Spanish police were Moraccan. Not that all Moraccans were being held as suspects.

[Fat middle]

Nay, it was not your fault. I understood you. I just wanted to make it clear because some people around here are begining to have anti-moroccan and want they all out of Spain. In fact, we have never get along very well with Morocco

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i think one more perspective needs to be added here... much like the nazi leadership in ww2 and the general german populace who followed them... there is the al qaeda, and there are the millions of muslims who support or sympathize with them in some way

while i have no sympathy whatsoever for the hardcore al qaeda and their tactics, there are "valid" reasons for the support they receive (and by valid, i don't necessarily mean right, but understandable)

a large reason why the nazis were so easily accepted by the general german populace pre-ww2 was because they offered a solution to all the problems that arised from the prejudices and economic oppression which all germans were subject to post-ww1... yes, their tactics were more than brutal, but if you watch your family die off one by one due to poverty and oppression, i think it can be quite easy to lose that sense or right and wrong that many of us take for granted in the fairly "easy" lifestyles we lead... and to turn to extremist religious viewpoints... when you have little in this world, the only place to look for salvation is the afterlife

many argue that it is not about money... which is true to an extent... al qaeda leadership is mostly rich and educated... but so are most other leaders, it is their talents that allow them to rise to such a position... however, the fact that they are a group with such widespread support, as opposed to a few thousand malcontents, has everything to do with the lack of economic and political freedom among those who support them

I'm under the belief that those that actually do the dirty work are not as educated as the talented, and educated leadership. Am I incorrect?

i'm all for hunting the leadership and operatives down, but a permanent solution to the problem must involve bringing social and economic freedoms to the general populace muslim world... not just changing the owners of the oil rigs from those who hate the US to those who like the US

I agree. A permanent solution needs to be found; something that would benefit the general populace of the muslim world, as you said. I don't know how that could be achieved, though, when Iraqis were throwing stones at the British coalition forces on their way to help at the scene of the car bombs in Basra.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Nay, it was not your fault. I understood you. I just wanted to make it clear because some people around here are begining to have anti-moroccan and want they all out of Spain. In fact, we have never get along very well with Morocco

I didn't know that about Spain and Morocco. What is the problem between Spain and Morocco?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I didn't know that about Spain and Morocco. What is the problem between Spain and Morocco?

I warn you we'll go out of topic if we beging withs. We have a loooong history of little quarrels

Just listing some sources of the problems:

• Since the end of 19th Century we had got a "protectorate" in the south-eastern region of Morocco. We also had some territories in the Sahara. They finally expelled us from Sahara about the 1970s (against the will of the "saharians")
• We still have two little cities in the North of Africa: Ceuta and Melilla. They have been Spanish since the 16th Century, I believe. Of course they have never been Moroccians, since Morocco was created in the last century... They want us to quit from there.
• We have had agreements to fish in their waters for years, but they usually break thosae agreements and attach our fishermen when they want to negotiate anything.
• They do not control the people that comes here. They usually come illegally, in small boats that try to cross the Strait. LOTS, LOTS of people (some Moroccians and some come from south-saharian countries) dead "drownded" in those boats.

[Ruinel]

Wow... thanks for posting that, FM.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'm under the belief that those that actually do the dirty work are not as educated as the talented, and educated leadership. Am I incorrect?

some are and some aren't... many suicide bombers have very meager existances... yet some of the 9/11 terrorists did come from educated backgrounds

and no, it is not easy... but i am afraid sometimes these days that we may be creating more suicide bombers than we are killing

consistancy between how we treat undemocratic practices in countries like saudi arabia and israel, and how we treat them in iraq and afghanistan would be a good start

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Ruinel
And what has it done to Christianity? Actually, many fundamental Christians turn off their TV and spend a lot of time reading their bible and such. They dress modestly, etc. They CHOOSE that lifestyle. It's not like someone burst into their home and put a TV and radio in their house and forced them to watch MTV and listen to hip hop on the radio.

I cannot speak for other countries so I may very well be wrong, but as the 'western' way of living has come to Norway Christianity has had a major fall. They even had problems with filling the churches on sundays.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I cannot speak for other countries so I may very well be wrong, but as the 'western' way of living has come to Norway Christianity has had a major fall. They even had problems with filling the churches on sundays.

How interesting. When I used to call myself a Christian (Catholic) the church numbers were so great that they had to build a new church.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
some are and some aren't... many suicide bombers have very meager existances... yet some of the 9/11 terrorists did come from educated backgrounds

Of course, they had to be educated in order to be accepted into the flight school. You are right.

and no, it is not easy... but i am afraid sometimes these days that we may be creating more suicide bombers than we are killing

consistancy between how we treat undemocratic practices in countries like saudi arabia and israel, and how we treat them in iraq and afghanistan would be a good start

What do you mean "consistency between how we treat undemocratic practices"?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What do you mean "consistency between how we treat undemocratic practices"?

we speak of bringing democracy to iraq as opposed to the brutal dictatorship of saddam, while doing nothing to effect change in the highly authoritarian saudi regime

we entered iraq on the pretense of UN resolutions, yet continue to ignore the various UN resolutions made against israel after the arab/israeli war

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
we speak of bringing democracy to iraq as opposed to the brutal dictatorship of saddam, while doing nothing to effect change in the highly authoritarian saudi regime

Do you recommend war with Saudi Arabia then? The plan is to try buiding TWO dfemocracies in the Middle East - Afganistan and Iraq to put pressure on the other countries to move toward democracy. There are currently some countries that are moving toward democracy - but it takes time. None of this is going to be overnight. It took 10 years to restore Germany and Japan after WWII.

we entered iraq on the pretense of UN resolutions, yet continue to ignore the various UN resolutions made against israel after the arab/israeli war

We don't ignore them - the reason we don't side with the UN resolutions against Israel is because the UN refuses to condemn hamas. We would have had no problem with condemning Israel for many of it's tactics - refuses to take a tough stand against Hamas.