who is oldest?

[Ñólendil]

If you ask me both CÃ*rdan and Galadriel were far older than 7 or even 8,000 years. CÃ*rdan was older though, he was born before the Great Journey, while Galadriel was not born until the Ñoldor had settled in Valinor.

[Tar-Elenion]

Galadriel was born in VY 1362 (IIRC) which would make her about 1300 years old when she left Valinor add to this another 600 years before the First Age ended, 3400 years for the Second Age, 3000 years for the Third Age, and Galadriel's age can be dated to about 8300 years (and yes I know that I am slightly understating the length of the Second and Third Ages while the First Age Years of the Sun are slightly over and the 1300 is an approximation).

Cirdan on the other hand was likely born at Cuivienen (though his first mention is on the Great March), If he was born before Melkors chaining he was likely over 10800 years old by the end of the Third Age.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion

Cirdan on the other hand was likely born at Cuivienen (though his first mention is on the Great March), If he was born before Melkors chaining he was likely over 10800 years old by the end of the Third Age.

Can you imagine the birthday cake!?

[Ñólendil]

Birthday lembas!

Thanks for looking that up Tar-Elenion (or for remembering, whichever you did), I would never have built up the energy. Seems like they'd be older somehow ... wasn't all the Sun Ages put together some 9,000 years long?

[Wayfarer]

Yes Dylan. But the elves were awakened before the sun.

I think that it went:

Ages of the Powers (the Valar lived and walked in Middle Earth)
Ages of the Stars (Elves awaken, some make the great journey)
Ages of the Sun (men awaken, Exiles return to Middle earth)

So galadriel would have been older than the sun as well. She was born in valinor before the dying of the trees.

[Ñólendil]

That's what I was saying. She is older than the Sun, and would therefore have been around longer than 9,000 years. Yet Tar-Elenion estimates her age at the time of the War of the Ring at 8300.

[Wayfarer]

You're right, she should have been at least 10300 then.

And I'll bet cirdan was far older.

[Tar-Elenion]

If you are refering to the Numenorean tradition of the Sun first rising when Fingolfin entered Mithrim then the Sun was about 7050 years old at the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth (about 590 years between the rising of the Sun and the end of the First Age, 3441 for the Second Age and 3021 for the Third Age).

On the other hand if you are refering to the Eldarin tradition (as per Myths Transformed) then the Sun was around before the Elves ever awoke.

[Wayfarer]

Well... seing as the numenorean tradition actually got into the sil. I'd say it's a better one to go by.

[Ñólendil]

Oh, I get it. Tar goes with Tolkien's latest (haphazard) conception of his mythology: the more scientific one. May I suggest that Christopher Tolkien was surprised to discover that his father did not find the 'Mannish influence' in the legends to be a solution to their supposed absurdity? Instead JRR Tolkien (as you know) proposed rewriting the whole sha-bang. Personally I don't accept it because we know so little about it. Accepting that the legends are merely influenced by Men is a good idea, but Tolkien didn't go with that. So I am left with the Trees, a fruit and a flower. Your way's as good as mine.

[Quickbeam]

Sorry I haven't replied in so long, but my internets been down. But thanks for keeping the post busy!

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quothe Inoldonil:
Oh, I get it. Tar goes with Tolkien's latest (haphazard) conception of his mythology: the more scientific one.
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While I prefer the proposed MT version, I fail to see how my 'calculations' are effected by it.

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[snip]
Quote:
Accepting that the legends are merely influenced by Men is a good idea, but Tolkien didn't go with that. So I am left with the Trees, a fruit and a flower. Your way's as good as mine.
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He never came to firm (or firmly enacted) conclusion on how to resolve the Mythological vs. Scientific contradictions. But Trees, a fruit and a flower can still be maintained in a Legendarium with a Sun and Moon that were extant well before Fingolfin arrived in Beleriand (which is more in keeping with a LotR tradition).

In any event the Sun and Moon from a fruit and a flower are only about 7050 years old by the time of the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth, as I posted above and the first Three Ages of the Sun were much less than 9000 years. This still leaves Galadriel at about 8300.

[Bacchus]

Just to muddy the water a bit, I seem to recall that the Years of the Trees were longer than the years of the Sun. Thus, we would need a conversion factor (there may or may not be one) to deduce the ages of those born before 1 FA.

[Tar-Elenion]

Your recollection is correct, but unnecessary. I calculated that in (at 9.6 yaers of the Sun per 1 year of the Trees, though I think a more accurate conversion would be 9.58, IIRC, but as I said above the calculations were 'approximate') to my figures.

[Ñólendil]

But Trees, a fruit and a flower can still be maintained in a Legendarium with a Sun and Moon that were extant well before Fingolfin arrived in Beleriand (which is more in keeping with a LotR tradition).

Do you mean to tell me that when Tolkien was writing the LotR, he pictured the Sun as rising long before Fingolfin came to Hithlum, or what? That can't be what you mean.

In any event the Sun and Moon from a fruit and a flower are only about 7050 years old by the time of the departure of Elrond from Middle-earth, as I posted above and the first Three Ages of the Sun were much less than 9000 years. This still leaves Galadriel at about 8300.

Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother Elenion.* I don't mean specifically 'how many years-of-the-Sun had Galadriel been alive' (which would be all of them according to 'Númenórean fancy' which I prefer), but 'how many of "our" years old was she?' I.e., taking the Years of the Trees and converting them to our years, and adding on the years of Sun, how old was she?

*Is the meaning of this name intended to be 'Star-son' or 'Of the stars'? Elen + ion or eleni + on?

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
Do you mean to tell me that when Tolkien was writing the LotR, he pictured the Sun as rising long before Fingolfin came to Hithlum, or what? That can't be what you mean.
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It is more in keeping with LotR. Go to the Moria chapter (Journey in the Dark?) and read the song Gimli sings. Then tell me what you think.

Another thing to do would be to look at the heraldic devises of Finwe and Elwe (in Pictures by JRRT, or JRRT Artist and Illustrator). Explain Finwe's device in light of when he died.

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Quote:
Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother Elenion.* I don't mean specifically 'how many years-of-the-Sun had Galadriel been alive' (which would be all of them according to 'Númenórean fancy' which I prefer), but 'how many of "our" years old was she?' I.e., taking the Years of the Trees and converting them to our years, and adding on the years of Sun, how old was she?
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Yes, I understood what you were asking and that is what I answered. At the end of the Third Age, she was approximately 8300 years old (of our years). This includes the Years of the Trees in Valinor (converted to Sun Years (Coranar, Sun Round), which are equivilent to 'our years) and the years in Middle-earth.

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Quote:
*Is the meaning of this name intended to be 'Star-son' or 'Of the stars'? Elen + ion or eleni + on?
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It can be taken either way or as a masculine suffix (similar to '-iel'). I generally translate it loosely as 'Star-lord'.

[Ñólendil]

It is more in keeping with LotR. Go to the Moria chapter (Journey in the Dark?) and read the song Gimli sings. Then tell me what you think.

I've memorized it! It's one of my favourites. Which part are you referring to? 'The light of sun, and star, and moon, in shining lamps of crystal hewn, undimmed by cloud or shade of night, there shone forever fair and bright'? I suppose you must be referring to that part. I don't know when Durin I awoke, but we are hear speaking of a vague time when Khazad-dum was still fair and wonderful. You can say it was before 'the Ages of the Sun' and that the Sun existed for as long as our scientists think it has, or you can say that it is talking about a time during the Ages of the Sun, when the Sun had been put in the heavens by the Valar from the Two Trees.

Another thing to do would be to look at the heraldic devises of Finwe and Elwe (in Pictures by JRRT, or JRRT Artist and Illustrator). Explain Finwe's device in light of when he died.

But Tolkien drew those devices very late in his life, when he had the 'newer mythology' in his head. He didn't make them during the writing of the Lord of the Rings.

Yes, I understood what you were asking and that is what I answered. At the end of the Third Age, she was approximately 8300 years old (of our years). This includes the Years of the Trees in Valinor (converted to Sun Years (Coranar, Sun Round), which are equivilent to 'our years) and the years in Middle-earth.

Hm. How about that? I guess that's what you were getting at when you told me the Three Ages together were less than 1,000 years.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
I've memorized it! It's one of my favourites. Which part are you referring to? 'The light of sun, and star, and moon, in shining lamps of crystal hewn, undimmed by cloud or shade of night, there shone forever fair and bright'? I suppose you must be referring to that part. I don't know when Durin I awoke, but we are hear speaking of a vague time when Khazad-dum was still fair and wonderful. You can say it was before 'the Ages of the Sun' and that the Sun existed for as long as our scientists think it has, or you can say that it is talking about a time during the Ages of the Sun, when the Sun had been put in the heavens by the Valar from the Two Trees.
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Durin I and the Dwarves awoke well before Men, and built great halls as well as aided Thingol with Menegroth long before Fingolfin marched into Middle-earth and Men awoke 'at the first rising of the Sun', which followed a few days after the Moon first rose.

However when Durin awoke the Moon (unstained) was there to be seen.




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Quote:
But Tolkien drew those devices very late in his life, when he had the 'newer mythology' in his head. He didn't make them during the writing of the Lord of the Rings.
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When they were drawn (ca. 1960+) is not that important to my mind. What is important is that if there was no Sun, Finwe could not have a Sun as his heraldic device.



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Quote:
Hm. How about that? I guess that's what you were getting at when you told me the Three Ages together were less than 1,000 years.
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The Ages were less than 10000 (not 1000) if you count the First Age as starting from when Fingolfin marched into Beleriand (590 + 3441 + 3021 = 7052). Galadriel was born in 1362 (Year of the Trees) and the Trees were slain in 1495. This makes her about 133 Tree Years old, or somewhere between 1200 and 1300 of our years at the time of the Flight of the Noldor.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You're right, she should have been at least 10300 then.

And I'll bet cirdan was far older.

Were neither of these the tiniest bitty faded? How long would that take?

[Ñólendil]

Durin I and the Dwarves awoke well before Men, and built great halls as well as aided Thingol with Menegroth long before Fingolfin marched into Middle-earth and Men awoke 'at the first rising of the Sun', which followed a few days after the Moon first rose.

However when Durin awoke the Moon (unstained) was there to be seen.

Sure, but it's 'which Durin' that is important. All the Durins awoke, you know, and we don't know how much time passes during the song. Which Durin in Khazad-dum are they talking about? When were the lamps made with the light of sun, star and moon trapped within them? This is not known. It seems unlikely to me that Tolkien should have had any sort of scientific mythology in his head when he was writing the LotR. Didn't this arise much later, in the late sixties or early seventies?

When they were drawn (ca. 1960+) is not that important to my mind. What is important is that if there was no Sun, Finwe could not have a Sun as his heraldic device.

When they were drawn makes all the difference! You can't take different writings (or illustrations) from different time periods and throw them together, that won't make for consistency. Finwe with a Sun for his device obviously belongs to the period of the scientific mythology. If I accept the more primitive mythos, than I of course do not accept the devices which contradict it.