Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sounds like we should just put prisoners in a big overstuffed comfy chair and feed them tea and crumpets until they puke, then they'll tell us what we want to know, won't they?

Well wait - if they don't like tea - that might be construed as torture. And the crumpets might throw into question their manliness before the Arab populace. and having them puke would be torture - now wouldn't it? What we are supposed to do is set them up with a lawyer and stuff and say "pretty please - tell us what role you had in the fighting and killing of US soldiers" If that fails - we just set them free by the way.

[Ultimatejoe]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Sounds like we should just put prisoners in a big overstuffed comfy chair and feed them tea and crumpets until they puke, then they'll tell us what we want to know, won't they?

To be honest, I don't know a definitive answer to this question. A line must be drawn though that protects human dignity, for those that have information, and those that don't. It seems to me that a lot of people here are more than willing to lump innocent and guilty together when discarding rights and considerations. I prefer to remember that the principles of justice trump the needs of security. Once you abandon that creed it becomes easier and easier to justify inhumane acts of torture and death.

[QueenAnnesLace]

I think that alot of the things that are going on in that part of the world not to mention others are just sickening.But I also think that in times of war nothing is or can be done in a -for lack of a better word-civil manner.
Some of the ways that people are interogated are just plain wrong.But at the same time when someone thinks that they shouldn't be doing the things that are just mental torture is ignorant.These people over there are use to not eating for days,living in over 100 degree temps everyday,sleeping on the ground,and in caves.Their daily lives would be torture to anyone in America,not to mention many other productive countries.
Drastic times call for drastic measures,bottom line.No one ever said war was pretty,or fair.If everyone in the world had the same opinions,religion,morals,and beliefs the world would be a much better place.But that's just not the way it is.And as SGH said what would be a acceptable form of interogation of people that's lives are already considered to be a living hell?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
These people over there are use to not eating for days,living in over 100 degree temps everyday,sleeping on the ground,and in caves.Their daily lives would be torture to anyone in America,not to mention many other productive countries.

I think there's an overreaction here... now, although most Iraqis are poor, I believe they do have houses. My grandparents, that used to live in Iraq 60 years ago, had houses. I can't believe the situation got worst, it just hasn't changed much.
I also believe the population in Iraq used to eat everyday, and maybe still does in the times of war.
About the temperature. In the summer it is indeed over 100 degrees (in the night it suppose to be quite cold though), but I don't think that in the winter it's that hot there.
Basically, I say that their life are poor... but not that poor, they definitely don't live in caves.

I don't have any idea how to interrogate prisoners.... but I don't think torture is the right way.
Besides, did the soldiers that tortured prisioners wanted to find informtion?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
I think that alot of the things that are going on in that part of the world not to mention others are just sickening.But I also think that in times of war nothing is or can be done in a -for lack of a better word-civil manner.
Some of the ways that people are interogated are just plain wrong.But at the same time when someone thinks that they shouldn't be doing the things that are just mental torture is ignorant.These people over there are use to not eating for days,living in over 100 degree temps everyday,sleeping on the ground,and in caves.Their daily lives would be torture to anyone in America,not to mention many other productive countries.

Drastic times call for drastic measures,bottom line.No one ever said war was pretty,or fair.If everyone in the world had the same opinions,religion,morals,and beliefs the world would be a much better place.But that's just not the way it is.And as SGH said what would be a acceptable form of interogation of people that's lives are already considered to be a living hell?

I don't agree that most are used to living in caves - but what you said about the use of psychological "torture" is true. it is ignorant to think that that should not be utilized.

Also - I think the world would be a very boring place without difference in religion and so forth. One of the reasons I longed for moving back to NJ. I like the diversity and the different people from all over the world. I think what is important is having respect for other people - but some people don't really care about other's or other's differences - such as Al Qaeda and bin Ladin. Islam is the only way for them and they think that everyone should be muslim and if not - then they deserve to die. This is what they even teach in MANY Mosques in the Middle East too.

As you said - war is hell and these things happen. They happened in World War II - and they will happen in future wars. It's not condoning it - but it is a fact that everyone must face.

BTW - the thing that sets us apart - is that we are actually doing something about it - unlike the condemnations from the Middle East about their autrocities.

[QueenAnnesLace]

I never mentioned Iraq in general.And if no one is living in caves over there why have we bombed the mountains ?I'm generally speaking of the middle east where they have been trying to track doen Hussien and Bin Ladden.And from what I've seen in the paper,t.v.,etc.- the military over there isn't living it up.I'm just saying if they can't get the info they need by taking what they or anyother(in general) military didn't have in the first place,they in some cases need to get them where they can.

[QueenAnnesLace]

And I had no intent on disrepecting you or your family by implying they were poor.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
To be honest, I don't know a definitive answer to this question. A line must be drawn though that protects human dignity, for those that have information, and those that don't. It seems to me that a lot of people here are more than willing to lump innocent and guilty together when discarding rights and considerations.

Yeah - being able to mind read would be great - but unless you can or know people who can - or unless the military has come up with some way to do that - we're **** out of luck in that regard. It would be great to be able to tell the guilty from the innocent with just asking them questions or from just looking at them. That would be possible in a perfect world. of course in a perfect world there would be no war - but we don't live in that world - nor does it or will it ever exist. No sense in living in dream world - we must deal with the reality we live in.

I prefer to remember that the principles of justice trump the needs of security.

Our constitution stops at the US borders. That is true in our country. But at time of war in other countries - they do not get lawyers and so forth. They are expected not to be tortured or abused the way they were. But there is nothing wrong with using the hoods or the music or sleep deprivation or any of that stuff. The only reason the hoods are not being used anymore is because of the pictures and what images they will bring up now.

Once you abandon that creed it becomes easier and easier to justify inhumane acts of torture and death.

No it doesn't. There is a line - but the problem is some people think we should just talk and hope they say something. That doesn't work. There are various ways of interrigation. This abuse was not right - but there are other forms that there is nothign wrong that people are now condemning and that is not right either.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
I never mentioned Iraq in general.And if no one is living in caves over there why have we bombed the mountains ?I'm generally speaking of the middle east where they have been trying to track doen Hussien and Bin Ladden.And from what I've seen in the paper,t.v.,etc.- the military over there isn't living it up.I'm just saying if they can't get the info they need by taking what they or anyother(in general) military didn't have in the first place,they in some cases need to get them where they can.

I see.
I'm not sure tortureis the way - and besides I'm not sure the torture was to get info.
And I didn't understand anything as disrespect to my family, or so - I was pointing that if they say they had houses 60 years ago they'd obviously have houses now.

[QueenAnnesLace]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I see.
I'm not sure tortureis the way - and besides I'm not sure the torture was to get info.
And I didn't understand anything as disrespect to my family, or so - I was pointing that if they say they had houses 60 years ago they'd obviously have houses now.

Thanks RTB I'm glad we understand eachother.


I wish that information could be obtained without torture.But unfortunately as a last resort( I'd hope)it is sometimes necessary.The sooner that we get the information we need the sooner this war will be over.There are all different types of torture but I believe that mental torture is the best way.It would be nice if you could just ask a question and get what you need but that just isn't realistic.The United States isn't the first by a long shot to resort to such tactics and I'm certain won't be the last.But I think that a lot of people are too critical of the United States for resorting to such things.I think that everyone should open their eyes and see we are in a lot of cases much more mild in interogation tactics,and I'm not talking about what a few idiots from the US military has done.Which I'd also like to add was their actions and not the US military or government.And they will be punished.

[Spock]

SGH-Tell 'em!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I really have to disagree about using torture.
There are at least two primary arguments that have been advanced on TV and print against it.
1) You tend to get the answers/information you are
looking for, not what is factual (they want the torture stopped).
2) It destroys moral/ethical differences between yourselves and those you're opposing. In a classic Vietnamese War phrase:
"You're destroying the village in order to save it."

And, of course, as tales of the tortures get out, you inevitably create more terrorists to avenge these tortures, leading to a vicious cycle.

And to argue that our tortures aren't as bad as their tortures, so they're not all that bad, a version offered recently, seems a rather weak argument, leading to silliness like Rush Limbaugh's view of the Iraqi interrogations.

[Lizra]

Am I the only one to get this in their email recently?

You gotta love Robin Williams...
Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan .. what we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message Robin William's plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace So, here's one plan.

1.) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic and the rest of those 'good ole boys,' We will never "interfere" again.

2.) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

3.) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4.) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

5.) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6.) The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7.) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8.) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9.) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10.) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The Language we speak is ENGLISH.....learn it..or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan.

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'"



~~~If you agree with the above forward it to friend...

If not, and I would be amazed, DELETE it !!!!!


....A little one-sided though....

[Insidious Rex]

boy do i seriously doubt robin williams wrote that. looks like basic far right wing scread to me.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Spock
It's very doubtful that higher ups would have condoned much less known about these things. One, their careers are worth much more than it would have been worth to be involved with this and two, lower ranks tend to enjoy doing things to get around the system. IME.

If this is so, then the higher ups need to be dishonorably discharged for being so inept that they had no clue as to what was going on under their own command.
Either way, they need to be punished.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
I really have to disagree about using torture.
There are at least two primary arguments that have been advanced on TV and print against it.
1) You tend to get the answers/information you are
looking for, not what is factual (they want the torture stopped).
2) It destroys moral/ethical differences between yourselves and those you're opposing. In a classic Vietnamese War phrase:
"You're destroying the village in order to save it."

And, of course, as tales of the tortures get out, you inevitably create more terrorists to avenge these tortures, leading to a vicious cycle.

Most of the stuff that occurred was NOT torture.

Also - sleep deprivation and hot and cold and loud music is not torture or abuse.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
If this is so, then the higher ups need to be dishonorably discharged for being so inept that they had no clue as to what was going on under their own command.
Either way, they need to be punished.

Who would that be? They aren't necessarily there to keep watch all the time. The only way they should be reprimanded is if they knew about it or if it was derilition (sp) of duty.

[Spock]

Originally posted by Ruinel
If this is so, then the higher ups need to be dishonorably discharged for being so inept that they had no clue as to what was going on under their own command.
Either way, they need to be punished.

You've no clue as to what constitutes enough to warrant a D.D. and the idea that higher (really high) ups would know the everyday minutia is really impossible. Thus the chain of command. It may go higher than sergeants but not much.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
boy do i seriously doubt robin williams wrote that. looks like basic far right wing scread to me.

Well if it's far right stuff - then it must be wrong right? I don't actually see much of a problem with it. Why should we allow ILLEGAL immigrants in here? Why do people feel there is a RIGHT to come into this country. The only people who have a right in this country ARE Americans. I'm not against immigration - but America comes first. Just like in every other country they look after their own first.

[Spock]

You know when Sonny Buono was a Representative he said "what's the problem with illegal immigration, the first word tells you it's wrong". Funny how the rest of the suits just don't get it.
JD you called it right....and there are damned few that do.