Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Ruinel]

POST #4. An American Apology to Iraqis
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You know what I'm sorry for and ashamed of? Americans that don't stand by their country and support its military and government, but yet have the audacity to live here, take advantage of the freedoms this country has fought and died to give you, and then critisize it at every turn. No one in this world is perfect. The US is not an innocent angel that has committed no wrong, but it is far less barbaric and more civilized then most and if war is something the world doesn't want, then other countries need to learn to wipe their own behinds instead of depending on the US to do it for them, while they critisize us all the while. So quit the whining and stand up for your freedom. And I say if you are an American, then be proud of it, and stop acting like a wimpy weakling that owes the world an apology for the actions of a few idiots, who btw, are being punished, but it sure doesn't seem to be enough for everyone. If you don't like it here, then get the hell out of Dodge. I'm so sick of this. If I didn't have to moderate, I wouldn't even read these ridiculous American slamming threads. ICK!....

The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
First, I'd like to say that I AM standing up for my freedom: my freedom of SPEECH! Or have you forgotten that one?

There is no requirement that I must stand behind my government or my military when I disagree with what they do. I will not. I will exercise my right to free speech and speak out against what I feel is wrong. And when they are wrong, I will say so. That is my right as an American citizen. This is MY country as much as it is YOURS. I have the same rights as you.

I agree with you that the US should not be called on every time another country has a dispute or needs help. I'm sick of the US being used as the world's police. Let them all handle their own damn problems for a change.

Comparing what those Americans did at the Abu Ghraib prison to what others have done does not hide the fact that what happened was barbaric and cruel, not to mention criminal! Amnesty International and the Red Cross had been looking into the prison fatalities as well as the reports of abuse. You and JD seem to think that it excuses what happened. As I said, I do not condone any of what happened on ANY side. I do not excuse ANYONE... but I feel the need to speak up against my own people for what they did. It was not right, none of it! And I will NOT support those actions.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast
Soldiers are ambassadors. The American Soldiers responsible should be subjected to the harshest military discipline allowable- they should shot by firing squad. You say that 'they are being punished', but does the American military allow death as a punishment? The British Army does.

I agree, soldiers are ambassadors in a foreign country. This is the reason why I'm so upset at what happened at the prison.

I don't know, yet, if the death penalty would be the right punishment for what happened. I do not have ALL of the details of what happened, and I would rather refrain from dishing out punishment so harsh and permanent under this strong emotion and before I knew everything. When the investigation is complete, I trust that at least some involved will be punished according to their crimes. (I hope.)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
They are being court marshaled and will do prison time. However, I agree with JD, that they should be tried for treason. They have jeopardized the entire mission along with the safety of coalition forces. Treason is punishable by death.

But will ALL involved see prison time? Probably not. At least one culprit, that I know of, was a civilian contractor (who raped a young Iraqi man at the prison). He is not subject to military laws. How will he be tried and judged? That I don't know.

I don't know how this "mission" can be saved at this point.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
First, I'd like to say that I AM standing up for my freedom: my freedom of SPEECH! Or have you forgotten that one?

There is no requirement that I must stand behind my government or my military when I disagree with what they do. I will not. I will exercise my right to free speech and speak out against what I feel is wrong. And when they are wrong, I will say so. That is my right as an American citizen. This is MY country as much as it is YOURS. I have the same rights as you.

I never said that there was a requirement that you support the government or any choices made by it, so don't bring up the constitution to twist my words around to support your point. And I don't care if you don't agree with what I say. I find Americans that constantly badmouth their own government and country undeserving of the freedom it offers.

You and JD seem to think that it excuses what happened. As I said, I do not condone any of what happened on ANY side. I do not excuse ANYONE... but I feel the need to speak up against my own people for what they did. It was not right, none of it! And I will NOT support those actions.

I do not think it excuses what happened. I never said that, and I don't believe JD said that. Read my earlier post. I believe that the outcries are not the same though, and they should be.

No one ever said you had to support the government when it was wrong, but it is not the American people who are responsible, or need to apologise.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I don't think it's a matter of condoning the acts of any inhumane treatment by any one group Ru. What is so irritating though is that the outrage for each act is hardly equal. So if the reactions of outrage and disgust at an inhumane act isn't treated equally, then it isn't going to be counted or measured equally as cruel.

I think the men who cut off Berg's head should face trial, as well as the American military and contractors who tortured (and possibly killed) prisoners at Abu Ghraib. If any other coalition forces did anything, they should be tried as well. Their punishments should fit the crime. The men who cut off Berg's head... simple... death. The contractor who raped the man in prison... 40 to life in prison (because, as far as I know, rape alone is not a crime punishable by the death penalty... it must result in the death of the victim as well).

The punishment must fit the crime.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I never said that there was a requirement that you support the government or any choices made by it, so don't bring up the constitution to twist my words around to support your point. And I don't care if you don't agree with what I say. I find Americans that constantly badmouth their own government and country undeserving of the freedom it offers.

Just trying to understand what you're saying here...
I should NOT use my freedom of speech to complain about things I think are wrong and need to be corrected. If I do so, then I should not live in the US, but find a new country to live in. IOW, love it or leave it, don't try to change it? Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying? (If this is indeed what you are saying.)

I do not think it excuses what happened. I never said that, and I don't believe JD said that. Read my earlier post. I believe that the outcries are not the same though, and they should be.

No one ever said you had to support the government when it was wrong, but it is not the American people who are responsible, or need to apologise.

It was American citizens who commited the crimes. As an American, I am ashamed that they misrepresented America in that way.

I am angry at the actions of others. However, I do not feel ownership to what Iraqis or al qaeda or Palestinians do. I feel ownership in what fellow Americans do, just like I'm sure Radagast feels ownership in what the Brittish military does, or BoP feels ownership in what the NZ military does. The military are representatives of our country when they are abroad, and they should remember that.

[Ruinel]

SGH, here's what you said that I was referring to...

You know what I'm sorry for and ashamed of? Americans that don't stand by their country and support its military and government, but yet have the audacity to live here, take advantage of the freedoms this country has fought and died to give you, and then critisize it at every turn....

No one in Iraq is fighting for my rights or freedoms. Not one soldier's death in Iraq is protecting my freedom to speak my dissent. Those battles were fought during the revolution and the civil war by soldiers, and those battles were fought in the courts by citizens. NOT in Iraq.

I am not required to support the actions of my government nor my military when I perceive them to be in the wrong. And at this time, I perceive them to be wrong. I will continue to exercise my rights as an American citizen (rights NOT being fought for in Iraq) and proclaim my dissent from the opinion of my government, from your opinion and JD's.

...So quit the whining and stand up for your freedom.

This is exactly what I am doing. I'm sorry that you do not recognize it as such.

And I say if you are an American, then be proud of it, and stop acting like a wimpy weakling that owes the world an apology for the actions of a few idiots, who btw, are being punished, but it sure doesn't seem to be enough for everyone. If you don't like it here, then get the hell out of Dodge.

I don't see your point. Why should I leave my country if I have a dissending opinion? I want to make things better here. That's why our constitution is capable of handling amendments... that's why we have our court system set up the way it is... that's why we have the rights that we do... all of this is in order to MAKE CHANGES IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THIS COUNTRY.

I will not leave here, I will make it better. Nor will I force you out, when your opinion differs from the governments, or mine.

The apology I made was because the military represents my country when it is abroad. The actions of the members of the military and contractors at Abu Ghraib prison make me ashamed! I will not slough it off as "the actions of a few idiots."

[Cirdan]

You know what I'm tired of? People who think criticizing the actions of the GOVERNMENT, not the COUNTRY, makes them unpatriotic. Anyone can be a flag waving follow-along. I takes real thought and strength of character to say, "I love my country, but what the government of my country is doing is wrong." The most patriotic act is to speak out against injustices commited in the name of the country. Patriotism is NOT "My current regime-right or wrong".

Patriotism is standing up for the core values on which the country was founded. Patriotism is speaking out against slavery, segregation, and attacks upon the rights we hold most dear.

The soldiers acted in a way that way encouraged and condoned by the chain of command. It refelected the political impetus of the government to show results quickly, by any means necessary. The military to steps to avoid restraint by rejecting legal oversite of the facility. They are working hard to find credible deniability.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Just trying to understand what you're saying here...
I should NOT use my freedom of speech to complain about things I think are wrong and need to be corrected. If I do so, then I should not live in the US, but find a new country to live in. IOW, love it or leave it, don't try to change it? Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you are saying? (If this is indeed what you are saying.)

I am not saying that. I am saying, don't be so quick to lay the resposibility at the doorstep of the entire country. The fact that a few Americans did this whether by their own choice or through a chain of command, does not represent the beliefs of the over all military, the over all government, or the over all population of the United States. I realize that it puts the US in a bad light, but only narrow mindedness will misplace the blame.

It was American citizens who commited the crimes. As an American, I am ashamed that they misrepresented America in that way.

That is fine. It is a shameful act. However, I will not be ashamed of being an American, because of a few idiots, and I will not apologize for something that they did. They can make their own apologies, but any apology that comes from them, the government, or the people of the US changes nothing. What's done is done.

I am angry at the actions of others. However, I do not feel ownership to what Iraqis or al qaeda or Palestinians do. I feel ownership in what fellow Americans do, just like I'm sure Radagast feels ownership in what the Brittish military does, or BoP feels ownership in what the NZ military does. The military are representatives of our country when they are abroad, and they should remember that.

Well, shall we look at the bigger picture? Why not feel resposible for what the British or NZ forces do. If they are part of the coalition, they represent the very thing the US represents. If one force of the coalition commits such acts, does it not reflect the entire coalition and the people of those countries? Better yet, let's forget about being shamed because it was Americans, and just be ashamed that one human being can do this to another.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Cirdan
You know what I'm tired of? People who think criticizing the actions of the GOVERNMENT, not the COUNTRY, makes them unpatriotic. Anyone can be a flag waving follow-along. I takes real thought and strength of character to say, "I love my country, but what the government of my country is doing is wrong." The most patriotic act is to speak out against injustices commited in the name of the country. Patriotism is NOT "My current regime-right or wrong".

Patriotism is standing up for the core values on which the country was founded. Patriotism is speaking out against slavery, segregation, and attacks upon the rights we hold most dear.

Well put.

The soldiers acted in a way that was encouraged and condoned by the chain of command. It refelected the political impetus of the government to show results quickly, by any means necessary. The military took steps to avoid restraint by rejecting legal oversite of the facility. They are working hard to find credible deniability.

The first step after investigation should have been a public apology, and trying to make things right. I doubt that anyone higher up in the chain of command will even get a slap on the wrist. Those at the bottom will face a court marshal and face long prison time, or death. Where is the justice in that?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I am not saying that. I am saying, don't be so quick to lay the resposibility at the doorstep of the entire country. The fact that a few Americans did this whether by their own choice or through a chain of command, does not represent the beliefs of the over all military, the over all government, or the over all population of the United States. I realize that it puts the US in a bad light, but only narrow mindedness will misplace the blame.

Not the country... not the citizens... not the entire military or all of those serving... but the government... the system in place which allowed, if not encouraged, these acts to happen. You can't possibly believe that this was something the higher ups didn't know was going on? How could they not know? And if they didn't know, they are inept leaders and should be replaced.

As I said, I'm ashamed, as an American who was being represented by the military at Abu Ghraib prison, of what happened there.

That is fine. It is a shameful act. However, I will not be ashamed of being an American, because of a few idiots, and I will not apologize for something that they did. They can make their own apologies, but any apology that comes from them, the government, or the people of the US changes nothing. What's done is done.

I'm not asking you to apologize. I only felt complelled to do so myself. I am angry, ashamed, and frustrated.

An apology from my government WOULD mean something. It would save face... everyone knows what happened, there's no sense in denying it or brushing it off. I want my government to make me proud again... not brush this under the rug and punish a few scapegoats.

Well, shall we look at the bigger picture? Why not feel resposible for what the British or NZ forces do. If they are part of the coalition, they represent the very thing the US represents. If one force of the coalition commits such acts, does it not reflect the entire coalition and the people of those countries? Better yet, let's forget about being shamed because it was Americans, and just be ashamed that one human being can do this to another.

I'm not a citizen of those countries, their military do not represent me, or my values.

I do sometimes feel ashamed at what goes on in the world, as a human being. I can't understand how one person can do the things to another that I read and hear about.

I can not believe the men who cut off Berg's head are worth being called human anymore... they're raging animals and should be "put down" for the sake of the world.

[Radagast]

Originally posted by Ruinel

I can not believe the men who cut off Berg's head are worth being called human anymore... they're raging animals and should be "put down" for the sake of the world.

Well put. With regard to your earlier point about my feeling responsibilty for the actions of the British military, that's true, I cannot describe the intense relief when I found out that the British torture photos were fake and the editor who published them sacked.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Not the country... not the citizens... not the entire military or all of those serving... but the government... the system in place which allowed, if not encouraged, these acts to happen. You can't possibly believe that this was something the higher ups didn't know was going on? How could they not know? And if they didn't know, they are inept leaders and should be replaced.

That is the whole purpose of an investigation.

An apology from my government WOULD mean something. It would save face... everyone knows what happened, there's no sense in denying it or brushing it off. I want my government to make me proud again... not brush this under the rug and punish a few scapegoats.

The US government has apologised and is investigating. I find the differing opinions interesting. Those that feel shame and the need to apologise, but want to be passive on the punishment of these soldiers, but the ones that don't feel the need to apologise, want to see the severest of punishment dealt out.

I'm not a citizen of those countries, their military do not represent me, or my values.

No, you are not a citizen of those countries, but those countries are part of the coalition that is backing the US led forces. Any country that commits inhumane acts that are part of the coalition, are representative of the coalition

I do sometimes feel ashamed at what goes on in the world, as a human being. I can't understand how one person can do the things to another that I read and hear about.

I can not believe the men who cut off Berg's head are worth being called human anymore... they're raging animals and should be "put down" for the sake of the world.

Let me put it this way: when the world shows that they care about the atrocities committed on Americans, (Berg, 4 mutilated contractors, WTC, etc...) when they show, shame, disgust, outrage, instead of the (OH WELL) attitude and dancing and celebrating in the streets, maybe then, I will feel differently. Because, I would like to know why these atrocities are less important or apalling than any others.

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Let me put it this way: when the world shows that they care about the atrocities committed on Americans, (Berg, 4 mutilated contractors, WTC, etc...) when they show, shame, disgust, outrage, instead of the (OH WELL) attitude and dancing and celebrating in the streets, maybe then, I will feel differently. Because, I would like to know why these atrocities are less important or apalling than any others.

Do you mean the Palestinians that danced on the streets after 9/11? Wasn't that fake?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
Do you mean the Palestinians that danced on the streets after 9/11? Wasn't that fake?

Was it? The video that I remember looked pretty real. I can still see that old bag dacing around, and a bunch of kids and their parents.

[Nerdanel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Was it? The video that I remember looked pretty real. I can still see that old bag dacing around, and a bunch of kids and their parents.

I might be wrong, but I've read that the ones who filmed it had told them about something else that had happened.. I'm not sure. I'm sorry that I don't sound too convincing (I don't even have a link), but that's what I remember.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
Do you mean the Palestinians that danced on the streets after 9/11? Wasn't that fake?

No, it was not. A Palestinian representative (or foreign minister or whatever) came on tv and said it was only a few misguided Palestinians who did not know the number of innocent lives that were killed... which was rubbish.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
No, it was not. A Palestinian representative (or foreign minister or whatever) came on tv and said it was only a few misguided Palestinians who did not know the number of innocent lives that were killed... which was rubbish.

Also, I remember how the Saudis gave Julliany a check for something like 10 million dollars and then said something like: 'well, it was bound to happen. The US deserves it.' Needless to say, Julliany gave them the money back, and told them to get the hell out of the country.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
...The US government has apologised and is investigating. I find the differing opinions interesting. Those that feel shame and the need to apologise, but want to be passive on the punishment of these soldiers, but the ones that don't feel the need to apologise, want to see the severest of punishment dealt out.

Apologies are not enough... action to remedy the situation is what is necessary.

No, you are not a citizen of those countries, but those countries are part of the coalition that is backing the US led forces. Any country that commits inhumane acts that are part of the coalition, are representative of the coalition

The coalition is a transitory group in which many countries participate. I do not feel the same membership to the coalition as I do to my own country.

Let me put it this way: when the world shows that they care about the atrocities committed on Americans, (Berg, 4 mutilated contractors, WTC, etc...) when they show, shame, disgust, outrage, instead of the (OH WELL) attitude and dancing and celebrating in the streets, maybe then, I will feel differently. Because, I would like to know why these atrocities are less important or apalling than any others. [/B]

All of the atrocities have filled me with consternation.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Apologies are not enough... action to remedy the situation is what is necessary.

And what might that be? What do you suggest?