04-29-2007, 09:23 PM | #61 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
This is exhaustively discussed in the book. Not everything is, but this is. "Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire,desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning." the council of Elrond "All is vain, you say, if he has the Ring. Why should he think it not vain to assail us, if we have it?" "He is not yet sure, " said Gandalf, "and he has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies are secure, as we have done. Also, we could not learn how to wield the full power all in a day. Indeed it can be used only by one master alone, not by many; and he will look for a time of strife, ere one of the great among us makes himself master and puts down the others." the last debate Traditional fairy tales often have a motif of one vulnerable spot on an otherwise immortal foe. The Mistletoe was Baldur's, the spot on the heel was Achilles', and I'm not sure of the origin of that "place my life in an object or finger bone and hide it" business, but there are enough such tales of vulnerability that the "purloined letter" approach isn't too far-fetched. It's Sauron's hubris that gets him. He thinks are beings are so "made in his image" that he just can't conceive they would sacrifice themselves and their material progress for a "greater good."
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-30-2007, 05:05 AM | #62 |
Enting
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5
Posts: 91
|
Anyone here plays Warcraft\Empire Earth\etc.?
When you guard all the perimeter of your base, do you also guard every critical building inside? :thoughtful: BTW, I really need some more smileys for my personal moods.. I know there was a thread about it, but it's not so easy to use.
__________________
The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean? |
04-30-2007, 01:01 PM | #63 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
Sauron's hubris, as you put it, was not merely that he couldn't conceive of others destroying the ring under the circumstances. If that was it, I'd have stopped posting long ago here. It was rather that he made no serious effort we know of to seek input from others whose conceptions may have differed from his own for him to then turn down, as generals do. Or perhaps he did. The best we can say is that Tolkien didn't tell us anything in that direction. One day, I'd love to see some fan fiction written from Sauron's POV. Maybe it would go something like this ... Sauron: Listen up, orcs, trolls, fell beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul mounts, wargs, and evil men that have come over to my side (BWA-HA-HA!). I called you together today for this Council of Sauron to inform you of my latest orders in connection with my plan for total ME domination! You agree, don't you, that my plans are perfect and unassailable? Orcs: You rule, Sauron, they're perfect! Trolls, Fell Beasts, Nazgul, Nazgul Mounts, and Wargs: Major +1s! One of the Evil Men: Uh, Sauron - I hate to say this but listen, I wasn't always evil, once I actually was [shudder!] good and because of that, I can conceive of some of what the "good guys" think in these situations. I know this is going to totally blow your mind but ... seriously ... they have some dudes over there on the other side of the river that would actually destroy your ring before letting you get it or even using it themselves. At least send out some more of your spies ... Sauron: Shut the f- up you a-hole. Nobody thinks of anything I don't think of first. [To his guards] Throw that sorry excuse of a man down the well and absolutely continue to leave Mount Doom completely and utterly unguarded. Next on the agenda: where are those reports I ordered on our Haradrim recruiting efforts? Last edited by Jon S. : 04-30-2007 at 01:57 PM. |
|
04-30-2007, 02:24 PM | #64 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
Well, I mean, megalomaniacs are notoriously poor at team building, kwim? Goes with the territory.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-30-2007, 03:02 PM | #65 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
|
|
04-30-2007, 03:09 PM | #66 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
"He (and his fact finding team) bestrides the Narrow world like a Colossus" Doesn't have the same ring (if you'll pardon the pun.)
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-30-2007, 03:36 PM | #67 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
Look, don't take my comments as a criticism of Tolkien. Don't even take it as an anachronism or literal error. Take it as an observation that, for one guy at least, Sauron did (or didn't do) things that a 10 year old would have thought of doing. P.S. And I apologize for lying earlier (it wasn't my last comment ). P.P.S. Where's Olmer when you need him - I'm waiting for his latest theory that Gandalf and Elrond knowingly lied when they told the others that destroying the ring wasn't something Sauron could conceive of anyone doing so they could cut their own side deal. |
|
04-30-2007, 05:06 PM | #68 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
04-30-2007, 05:07 PM | #69 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Sauron comannds his forces as a tyrant, Elrond seeks the counsel about a non-military matter concerning all of them from peers of various peoples who live in Middle Earth. Second, Elrond and Gandalf both know what conclusion they want to come too: destroy the Ring, the question to be decided is how that is to be achieved. They really aren't seeking different perspectives, but rather attempting to impart wisdom. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
04-30-2007, 06:39 PM | #70 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Every army base and every arms depot in this country, however, minor, is guarded at all times (and if they're not and weapons are stolen, if people learn of it, heads roll). You may say Mount Doom was not an army base or depot and that's correct but what it was was a true point of vulnerability for Sauron that a 10 year old would have posted a guard at.
Your other examples are inappropos. The U.S. had a satellite system in place and other intelligence at hand plus a missle array at the Pentagon itself but we missed or misread what they told us and so the World Trade Center and Pentagon weren't protected. Sauron didn't even take a step to post reconnaisance at or around Mount Doom. Forkbeard, we'll have to agree to disagree. Peace. Last edited by Jon S. : 04-30-2007 at 06:47 PM. |
04-30-2007, 06:48 PM | #71 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Forkbeard, you and I just disagree.[/QUOTE] |
|||
04-30-2007, 07:19 PM | #72 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
This is the way the story went, but there are many choices that MIGHT have been the critical one.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-30-2007, 07:55 PM | #73 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
04-30-2007, 07:59 PM | #74 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
|
|
04-30-2007, 08:01 PM | #75 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
P.S. If nothing else, at least we now have some regular posting happening here for a couple of days.
|
05-02-2007, 01:08 PM | #76 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 19
|
Sorry - been away for a bit.
To answer someone's question, 'hola' was said by Shagrat to Gorbag immediately following Sam's battle with Shelob, just before the Orcs find Frodo. 'Hola' is uniquely Spanish, and I had tied that in with the 'coney' reference, wondering if that was some Tolkien wordplay or subtle jest. There have since been many comments on etymology, Latin derivatives, etc., but it is unclear to me just what any of that has to do with a fictional Middle-Earth and languages that Tolkien invented on his own. Tolkien himself says that Sauron became "aware of the magnitude of his own folly" in leaving Mount Doom unguarded. This would have taken only a few Orcs out of thousands, and I think a much better plot device would have been for there to have been such a guard in place, which Frodo and Sam were going to have to deal with somehow, but instead they find that Gollum had managed to strangle them prior to their arrival at the Chambers of Fire. This, of course, being necessary to prevent loss of the Ring to the Orcs at the very end. In the spirit of the arguments preceding, one could very well ask just why there was such a considerable guard of Orcs at Cirith Ungol if Shelob had it so well guarded on her own. My opinion is that if such as guard had been provided in the one location, it should have been provided at the other. This is, IMHO, another Tolkien plot-hole. |
05-08-2007, 12:06 AM | #77 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Lets start with: Gandalf knows about Saurons as much as Sauron knows about Gandalfs.
So, the discussion about Sauron’s irrationality in conducting his business is strictly based on Gandalf’s hearsay, an educated guess, at best. To give the advises on farther actions considering the salvation of ME, you need to know the strategy of your opponent.Where Gandalf has got an information of what Sauron thinks and what Sauron's plans, that he can proclaim it with such unshakable aplomb? His best spies, the eagles, could tell him about some movements of the enemy’s army, but not about what Sauron thought or said. I think, that such assurance could come from a personal contact, in a manner of some kind of parley with Sauron, where both sides have discussed plans considering the Ring, and came to some mutual agreement: Sauron was also interested in the destruction of the Ring. Then all his seems to be unreasonable misconducts could be easily explained by his cooperation in accordance with the joint plan. To Jon S. How could I let down of your optimistic expectations!
__________________
Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. |
05-08-2007, 03:55 AM | #78 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
I don't think there was a significant guard at Cirith Ungol. The fact that they were a crack suicide patrol seems like more of a plot hole
|
05-08-2007, 07:48 AM | #79 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Cirith Ungol is more reflective of Orc management style than of Sauron's plotting. Shelob served the same function for that guardhouse as Gollum did for the Goblins in the Hobbit. You could send a somewhat troublesome or politically suspect underling down there on an errand. If he made it back, he'd have had a live ammo training exercise. If he didn't, you had his stuff. Meanwhile, it was a pretty painless way to remind people they wanted to stay on your good side, such as it was.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
05-08-2007, 02:10 PM | #80 | ||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Tolkien Imponderables | Wally | Lord of the Rings Books | 22 | 12-11-2010 09:32 AM |