Tolkien Errors and Anachronisms

[Wally]

Although Tolkien was a perfectionist, which is why the LOTR took so long to write, it nonetheless contains some flaws. Is there a thread elsewhere in here that discusses these?

[brownjenkins]

Certainly flaws within his own history, that was constantly changing, though I can't think of any plain anachronisms off the top of my head. Any you noticed?

[Wally]

One that immediately comes to mind is after Frodo and Sam have escaped Cirith Ungol and are beginning their trek inside Mordor. This is the scene where Sam says that if Shagrat were to give him a glass of water, he would shake his hand.

Now Tolkien makes it clear elsewhere that bowls were used for drinking when at table, or mugs when in pub. This, I think, is an error on his part, as I really doubt that glasses were used for drinking in Middle-Earth, and that neither he nor the editors caught it.

[Wally]

Regarding the 'black breath' that nearly killed Eowyn and Merry: why was this indigenous only to the Nazgul and not Sauron himself? I would have expected Isildur to have paid dearly thus for his assault on Sauron's person with his father's sword.

[Olmer]

I can recall the firework's dragon which passed "like an express train".

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I can recall the firework's dragon which passed "like an express train".

Haha, I just checked that, and you are correct. That would be a Class A anachronism.

The glass is a good point as well, cup or mug would have been more fitting.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Wally

Regarding the 'black breath' that nearly killed Eowyn and Merry: why was this indigenous only to the Nazgul and not Sauron himself? I would have expected Isildur to have paid dearly thus for his assault on Sauron's person with his father's sword.

That's interesting, though I suppose you could say that Nazgul were somewhat like living dead, where as Sauron was not, so they might have properties in and of themselves that were not shared by a maia.

[Wally]

Good job, that; the express train beats out the glass by a wide margin.

There aren't a lot of these, but I think a list of them would be instructive and informative. Not to mention amusing.

There is also some awkward phraseology to be found therein, or maybe just some overeager editing. When Sauron realizes that Frodo is in the cracks of doom, it is said that "he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung". Wouldn't the following make more sense?

"he knew his deadly peril and <how slender was> the thread upon which his doom now hung".

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by Wally

There is also some awkward phraseology to be found therein, or maybe just some overeager editing. When Sauron realizes that Frodo is in the cracks of doom, it is said that "he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung". Wouldn't the following make more sense?

"he knew his deadly peril and <how slender was> the thread upon which his doom now hung".

Well, I would consider a "thread" to be slender in anycase. Interesting topic!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Wally

Regarding the 'black breath' that nearly killed Eowyn and Merry: why was this indigenous only to the Nazgul and not Sauron himself? I would have expected Isildur to have paid dearly thus for his assault on Sauron's person with his father's sword.

He did pay dearly - eventually.

But anyway, I think Sauron was pretty incapacitated at the time. He had been "mortally wounded" by the joint assault of Gil-galad and Elendil, both of whom had been slain getting the job done. All Isildur had to do was walk up, pick up what was left of Narsil, bend over to slice off the Ring, and he was done.

'sides, Isildur may have been more able to withstand the "black breath" than either Eowyn or Merry - he was a pretty powerful figure.

[Wally]

But they do bear discussion.

The thread issue is just a matter of opinion, although other authors who have used that phrase since have done so as I had suggested. Reading it in LOTR, it just looks strangely unfinished to me.

Since Aragorn fought the Nazgul on Weathertop, and the Witch-King wounded Frodo there, with neither of them becoming affected by the black breath, one must conclude that one is only so affected when one actually wounds a Nazgul, which neither Aragorn or Frodo did, as opposed to the situation with both Eowyn and Merry. We cannot be sure that Sauron was possessed of the black breath and so maybe Isildur would have thus been unaffected. Personally though, I feel this is just an oversight by Tolkien.

Other ponderables are as follows:

If, as Gandalf said, nearly all mithril that the dwarves had mined in Moria had been given to Sauron by the Orcs, then where did all the mithril come from that was later used to repair the Gates of Minas Tirith?

Twice, Gandalf refers to Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. How is this reconciled with Tom Bombadil's calling himself the 'eldest', which the Elves apparently agreed with?


More to come.....

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Wally

Twice, Gandalf refers to Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. How is this reconciled with Tom Bombadil's calling himself the 'eldest', which the Elves apparently agreed with?

>> Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evident by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning "Ancient" or "Belonging to the distant past"), Men Orald. All these names apparently mean "Eldest." However, Treebeard calls himself the eldest living being of Middle-earth and that he was there before anyone else. However, Tolkien remarked: "Treebeard is a character in my story and even he does not know everything."[citation needed] It is possible, then, that Treebeard's knowledge omits Bombadil. Wikipedia

>> If Tom Bombadil is indeed not a normal being, but rather a supernatural being or "concept" this is not necessarily a contradiction (Treebeard is likely the oldest living being, while Bombadil could be an older supernatural being). answers.com

[The Gaffer]

This is a good idea for a thread, Wally. Welcome back/aboard.

Other things we know about the Black Breath:

- you don't need to wound a Nazgul to be affected by it: e.g. the Houses of Healing for how it affected the Gondor soldiers with the Nazgul being in the air
- it was to do with despair and fear, which is the only explanation I can think of for Aragorn's driving them off with a broken sword and a flaming branch.

Maybe the mithril was recovered from Sauron's hoards. We don't know a lot of details about what Aragorn did after LOTR ended, but we do know that there were plenty of battles fought far afield.

I guess the Ents predate the Elves; don't have a Sil handy so can't confirm it though. For Tom, see numerous threads about who and what he is...

[Jon S.]

The #1 "error" (more an omission) to me is:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've always thought that in Tolkien's attempt to recreate Hobitesse as Merry Olde England, he rather blatantly and abashedly employed a number of more modern conveniences which, when compared with the rest of the world, are quite obviously anachronisms. The reference to a glass of water could be considered subtle enough to have slipped through, but to me, the clocks on the mantel and the express train references are just too obvious to have slipped through.

Also, re: the eagles, I don't buy a couple of the guys arguments:

"At least one writer on r.a.b.t. suggested that Sauron might himself be able to fly. The only place in Tolkien's writings where we see Sauron fly is way back in the First Age, when he changes himself into a bat to fly away from Lúthien (Silmarillion, 212). Whether Sauron could still change into other forms at the end of the Third Age is a subtle question. We know that his powers are greatly reduced over what they previously were, and we also know that he has lost at least some of his shape-shifting ability; i.e. he cannot put on a fair form any longer. My view would be that there is nothing to support the suggestion that Sauron is able to change into a flying form in the late Third Age. If he could, we would expect him to have done so when Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath-Naur. "

Rather, it seems to me that since we know that in the past, Sauron was able to change into a bat or vampiric form and fly, and since such a form I hardly think qualifies as "fair" (whatever Anne Rice may say!), it seems to me that the burden of proof would lie on those claiming that he had lost this power.

Also, he claims that both Frodo's resistance to the Ring and its effect on him change by the passage of time. This seems absurd, since Frodo had the Ring for some I believe thirteen years before he went on his quest, which lasted for basically one winter and part of one fall; it seems unjustifiable to say that the increase of the Ring's effect increased by the passage of time, given this, so that it would be by approach to its birthplace, Orodruin. Consequently, were the Eagles to bear Frodo to Orodruin in the space of an hour, as the article suggests, he clearly would not be able to build up a proper resistance to it.

[Wally]

Thank'ee, Gaffer. It's been a while, allright. For those who may be interested, I have also updated my profile. Come see us!

Everyone raises some good points, and there is ample material for discussion on the more controversial issues. Let us at it.

Another major uh-oh in my opinion is the matter of the One Ring after it was lost but prior to its identification by Gandalf. Tolkien flatly states, through Gandalf, I believe, that Sauron had thought that the Elves had found and destroyed the ring. How could this be, considering the catastrophic effects once it WAS destroyed? Surely Sauron would have known better, but according to Tolkien he did not. This seems to me to be another plot hole by Tolkien that eluded editing.

Re Treebeard and Tom Bombadil, Gandalf states twice that Treebeard is the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. Bombadil merely says he is Eldest, and was there before the first acorn. The Ents were there before the Elves, according to the rhyme told to Theoden, so this is not much help, but either Gandalf or Bombadil is wrong (I say Gandalf is in error since the Wizards all came much later, so how would he know for sure?), unless I am really missing something here. Any opinions or comments?

[The Gaffer]

Hey, give the guy a break. Even Shakespeare had a clock chiming in Julius Caesar...

On the Ring thing, I think there are a few dodgy bits. There seems to be some uncertainty as it were around how many "magic" rings there are, in which Gandalf might have a "professional interest".

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Wally

Since Aragorn fought the Nazgul on Weathertop, and the Witch-King wounded Frodo there, with neither of them becoming affected by the black breath, one must conclude that one is only so affected when one actually wounds a Nazgul, which neither Aragorn or Frodo did, as opposed to the situation with both Eowyn and Merry.

Not at all. Perhaps they just ate more onions when the War heated up.

In more seriousness, we really have very little idea what "fueled" the Nazgul, as they say. As Sauron's power builds (and that is more than a "political" statement, so it's not all about treaties, or somesuch) his malice could have continued to strengthen their powers.

If, as Gandalf said, nearly all mithril that the dwarves had mined in Moria had been given to Sauron by the Orcs, then where did all the mithril come from that was later used to repair the Gates of Minas Tirith?

Gifts from the Elves, perhaps. Recycling. Discovery of Sauron's stores...he wasn't exactly draping Southrons in it.

Twice, Gandalf refers to Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth. How is this reconciled with Tom Bombadil's calling himself the 'eldest', which the Elves apparently agreed with?

Maybe Tom isn't "living" according to the same criteria. Maybe "living" is used to apply to something more native to the earth than wandering Maiar or whatever Tom was or maybe he was immortal and therefore not in the discussion.

And even though the riddle Gandalf gives to Theoden says the Ents were before all, Fangorn himself says, "it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness, long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, although our ways have parted, since." So whatever form he had before the elves, he, or Ents in general, didn't speak.

Howdy, Wally. I'm new here.

[Tessar]

About the thread editorial comment:

Your editorial makes sense if the description is pertaining to how Sauron realizes how 'close' Frodo is.

However if the idea is simply to say that Sauron suddenly realizes 'who' the person is that holds his doom, then Tolkien's syntax is still king.

[Peter_20]

I always found it fairly unfitting how Gandalf mentioned a "pop gun" in The Hobbit.
Were there guns in Arda?

Oh, and why is it that Tolkien uses Spanish and Italian names and expressions?
There's this hobbit named Blanco, and I also recall Merry going "hey presto!".