Churchill - Page 3

Janny · 01-24-2005, 04:53 PM

I adore that quote!!!

And the West Wing comes up in there too (ish)

I got seven.

sun-star · 01-25-2005, 04:59 AM

Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others.

Janny · 01-25-2005, 03:21 PM

Gee way to tell 'em one of the answers...

Oh, gee to tell them one of the answers is one of the answers...

sun-star · 01-26-2005, 04:59 AM

The programme on Churchill's rhetoric the other night was very interesting. Alongside the more obvious points (repetition: we shall fight on the beaches...; change of register: give us the tools and we shall finish the job, etc.) they discussed how in his speeches he created an ideal image of Britain for the whole nation to unite around, based on its naval and island identity, Shakespeare's history plays, the rural lifestyle etc... which of course were on their last gasp by WW2. Fascinating.

Grey_Wolf · 01-26-2005, 10:43 AM

At the moment I'm trying to finish Churchill's A history of English speaking peoples II: The New World since I've left it on the backburner for too long.

Janny · 01-26-2005, 11:50 AM

sun-star, you mention the fact he used the navy. Do you think someone else without his background could have created such an image?

inked · 01-26-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun-star

The programme on Churchill's rhetoric the other night was very interesting. Alongside the more obvious points (repetition: we shall fight on the beaches...; change of register: give us the tools and we shall finish the job, etc.) they discussed how in his speeches he created an ideal image of Britain for the whole nation to unite around, based on its naval and island identity, Shakespeare's history plays, the rural lifestyle etc... which of course were on their last gasp by WW2. Fascinating.

But the purpose of a rhetorician is to motivate people to achieve a task. And the good orater is able to draw on the effective imagery and ideals of his audience to achieve that purpose. This can be done positively as we view Churchill and negatively as we view Hitler. But you see the fundamental rhetoric in each.

Churchill was simply fabulous at this. *standing ovation*

Spock · 01-26-2005, 12:22 PM

Theres an excellet book on the linquistics of the Nazi's. It's a tome for those in languages and shows how they used language and it's nuances to sway people. Churchill created vivid images and was able to relate to common men and women with those.

sun-star · 01-26-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janny

sun-star, you mention the fact he used the navy. Do you think someone else without his background could have created such an image?

Yes, I think so, because it's a literary as well a literal image. It's not so much the navy as the idea of an 'island race', a nation set apart from the rest of the world by barriers of geography as well as identity. Blame Shakespeare -

Quote:

This sceptred isle...
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house...

- and all that. It's partly about the naval battles, like Trafalgar, which have built up this national myth of the sea as safeguard, and of course Churchill was strongly wrapped up in that - from his own family history as much as anything else. But it's also about the image of the island as something unique, something especially worthy of protection. Apparently in the text of his speeches Churchill always capitalised "Island".

Yet also... it's not just a myth or an image. During World War Two that twenty miles of sea between here and France really was the difference between freedom and tyranny - life and death. To be honest, I think you (that's Janny) and I should understand this better than anyone. Go and look across the sea. That's France. That was occupied territory. That was how close they came.

No wonder he made a big deal of the sea.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 01-30-2005, 11:46 PM

Nancy Astor once said to Churchill 'Winston, if you were my husband, I would put poison in your tea!', to which Churchill replied 'Nancy, my dear, if I were married to you, then I would most certainly drink it!'

sun-star · 02-10-2005, 12:03 PM

In case you're ever looking for something to do in London:

Churchill museum opens

The Cabinet War Rooms is pretty cool too.

Spock · 02-10-2005, 01:20 PM

I've been to the war rooms and they were worth every anticipated moment. To be where history was created felt amazing.

01-24-2005, 04:53 PM	#41
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	I adore that quote!!! And the West Wing comes up in there too (ish) I got seven. __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

01-25-2005, 03:21 PM	#43
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	Gee way to tell 'em one of the answers... Oh, gee to tell them one of the answers is one of the answers... __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

01-26-2005, 04:59 AM	#44
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	The programme on Churchill's rhetoric the other night was very interesting. Alongside the more obvious points (repetition: we shall fight on the beaches...; change of register: give us the tools and we shall finish the job, etc.) they discussed how in his speeches he created an ideal image of Britain for the whole nation to unite around, based on its naval and island identity, Shakespeare's history plays, the rural lifestyle etc... which of course were on their last gasp by WW2. Fascinating. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

01-26-2005, 11:50 AM	#46
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	sun-star, you mention the fact he used the navy. Do you think someone else without his background could have created such an image? __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

01-26-2005, 12:22 PM	#48
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Theres an excellet book on the linquistics of the Nazi's. It's a tome for those in languages and shows how they used language and it's nuances to sway people. Churchill created vivid images and was able to relate to common men and women with those. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

01-25-2005, 04:59 AM	#42
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others.

01-26-2005, 10:43 AM	#45
Grey_Wolf Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden Posts: 9,481	At the moment I'm trying to finish Churchill's A history of English speaking peoples II: The New World since I've left it on the backburner for too long.

01-30-2005, 11:46 PM	#50
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	Nancy Astor once said to Churchill 'Winston, if you were my husband, I would put poison in your tea!', to which Churchill replied 'Nancy, my dear, if I were married to you, then I would most certainly drink it!'

02-10-2005, 12:03 PM	#51
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	In case you're ever looking for something to do in London: Churchill museum opens The Cabinet War Rooms is pretty cool too. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

02-10-2005, 01:20 PM	#52
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	I've been to the war rooms and they were worth every anticipated moment. To be where history was created felt amazing. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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