Mysterious stuff

hectorberlioz · 12-18-2003, 07:41 PM

so what was Tolkien thinking when he wrote that fox in the fellowship of the ring?
its a part that always was mysterious for me.
do you know a part that confuses you?
please post it and why it is confusing to you.

Bacchus · 12-18-2003, 08:26 PM

The fox seems to me to be part of the transition from the lighthearted, almost chatty style of The Hobbit to the generally more serious style of LOTR in general. The Party and Bombadil also fit into this style.

mithrand1r · 12-18-2003, 08:29 PM

I think the fox was written because at the time that part of LOTR was written, Tolkien intended to make LOTR similar to the Hobbit in general tone and style. At some point after this, he decided to take a more serious tack in his tone of writing.

I have no proof about this, but this is my opinion.

I wonder why he bothered to mention about the Entwives without giving more detail. (In some repects this is part of the charm in his writing. By not spelling everything out, there are things left to the reader to wonder about and speculate. Fot me it gives the impression that there is more to learn than what is written.

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-18-2003, 08:40 PM

Bacchus is, of course, correct about the fox. But I've always liked it, It works on several levels. It's part of Tolkien's ability to give depth to the story (perhaps analogous to Tom Bombadil), but also it relates to peoples experience in life. Who hasn't seen an airplane, car, etc. go by and wonder who is in it, what will happen, while knowing they'll never know? Or speculating on what has happened to a former girl/boy friend.

Quote:

"Hobbits!" he thought. "Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer about this." He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it.

Apparently inconsistent with the concept of kelvar, although Robert Foster speculates that the Eagles of Manwe were the highest of the kelvar (while others suggest they were Maia).

Dúnedain · 12-19-2003, 12:53 AM

Can someone refresh my memory about this "fox"? Been about a year since I read Fellowship and I don't remember what you are talking about

hectorberlioz · 12-19-2003, 01:12 AM

check out the post above you

ah, you guys have an excellant theory for the fox, i would have never seen that.

Dúnedain · 12-19-2003, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
check out the post above you
ah, you guys have an excellant theory for the fox, i would have never seen that.

He didn't make it clear who said that, I thought that was from Bree...

hectorberlioz · 12-19-2003, 01:29 AM

fotr,ch.3, page 100(according to my edition, pulished by del rey, before the movies were released. they have paintings on them)

Quote:

a few creatures came and looked at them when the fire had died away. a fox passing through the wood on bussiness of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed...

this is where Tuors post comes in.

Dúnedain · 12-19-2003, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
fotr,ch.3, page 100(according to my edition, pulished by del rey, before the movies were released. they have paintings on them)

Quote:

a few creatures came and looked at them when the fire had died away. a fox passing through the wood on bussiness of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed...

this is where Tuors post comes in.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh I remember that now

Thank you thank you

hectorberlioz · 12-19-2003, 01:36 AM

no problem at all m'dear fellow

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-19-2003, 12:01 PM

Oh, one other point about the fox. In a way it's an echo of the incident in "Unfinished Tales" where Tuor and Voronwe, on their way to Gondolin, see a mysterious figure cross their path but don't know who he is or his task.

Quote:

Then he went swiftly away towards the North, as one in pursuit, or on an errand of great haste, and they heard him cry Faelivrin, Finduilas! until his voice died away in the woods. But they knew not that Nargothrond had fallen, and this was Turin son of Hurin, the Blacksword. Thus only for a moment, and never again, did the paths of those kinsmen, Turin and Tuor, draw together.

And so the fox, after seeing the hobbits, went on its way, its story continuing on one path while the hobbits followed theirs. Perhaps somewhat less heroic, but not from the perspective of the fox.

Melko Belcha · 12-19-2003, 12:11 PM

The thing about the fox that I don't understand is that LotR is supposed to be the story written by Frodo. How did Frodo know that happened, he was asleep, and how did he know what the fox was thinking. I agree with the reasons above about of why Tolkien put it into the story, but looking at it as Frodo's story, why did Frodo put it in there? What was Frodo trying to show with that scene? Was Frodo trying to record the events of his journey, or was he trying to tell a story? I believe it was a combination of both.

hectorberlioz · 12-19-2003, 12:26 PM

well, lotr is not from frodo's perspective in the books, but he wrote his perspective in the red book.

does that make sense?

Bacchus · 12-19-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melko Belcha
The thing about the fox that I don't understand is that LotR is supposed to be the story written by Frodo. How did Frodo know that happened, he was asleep, and how did he know what the fox was thinking. I agree with the reasons above about of why Tolkien put it into the story, but looking at it as Frodo's story, why did Frodo put it in there? What was Frodo trying to show with that scene? Was Frodo trying to record the events of his journey, or was he trying to tell a story? I believe it was a combination of both.

The fox is not the only example of an omniscient narrator-the scene on the Stairs where Gollum looks at a sleeping Frodo and Sam, then towards Torech Ungol, then reaches gently towards Frodo, is another such example.

LeniFreak · 12-25-2003, 08:01 PM

I always kind of liked the fox. It seemed sort of out of place with--yeah, pretty much every single other thing in the entire book otherwise, but I liked it. The addition of the fox--treated to thoughts as if a secondary character--gave an interesting idea of the Shire as a place where even this random fox is a legitimate part of life, in stark contrast to the rest of the book's concerns, where, even though in the end it comes down to individual minds and a piece of metal, the concepts are the sweeping moves of armies and humanity (intelligent-organismanity?) and whole worlds and ages and ways of life.

Also, it produced a little bit of suspense--if even a fox notices something out of the ordinary as our favorite hobbits travel, how are we to expect that people, or worse yet, those black riders, aren't going to?

hectorberlioz · 12-25-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenifreak
Also, it produced a little bit of suspense--if even a fox notices something out of the ordinary as our favorite hobbits travel, how are we to expect that people, or worse yet, those black riders, aren't going to?

thats what I was thinking when I read it...

12-18-2003, 07:41 PM	#1
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Mysterious stuff so what was Tolkien thinking when he wrote that fox in the fellowship of the ring? its a part that always was mysterious for me. do you know a part that confuses you? please post it and why it is confusing to you. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

12-18-2003, 08:26 PM	#2
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	The fox seems to me to be part of the transition from the lighthearted, almost chatty style of The Hobbit to the generally more serious style of LOTR in general. The Party and Bombadil also fit into this style. __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

12-18-2003, 08:29 PM	#3
mithrand1r Cyber Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place Posts: 986	I think the fox was written because at the time that part of LOTR was written, Tolkien intended to make LOTR similar to the Hobbit in general tone and style. At some point after this, he decided to take a more serious tack in his tone of writing. I have no proof about this, but this is my opinion. I wonder why he bothered to mention about the Entwives without giving more detail. (In some repects this is part of the charm in his writing. By not spelling everything out, there are things left to the reader to wonder about and speculate. Fot me it gives the impression that there is more to learn than what is written. __________________ Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC)

12-19-2003, 12:53 AM	#5
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Can someone refresh my memory about this "fox"? Been about a year since I read Fellowship and I don't remember what you are talking about __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

12-19-2003, 01:12 AM	#6
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	check out the post above you ah, you guys have an excellant theory for the fox, i would have never seen that. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

12-19-2003, 01:36 AM	#10
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	no problem at all m'dear fellow __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

12-19-2003, 12:11 PM	#12
Melko Belcha Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Behind the Walls of Night Posts: 286	The thing about the fox that I don't understand is that LotR is supposed to be the story written by Frodo. How did Frodo know that happened, he was asleep, and how did he know what the fox was thinking. I agree with the reasons above about of why Tolkien put it into the story, but looking at it as Frodo's story, why did Frodo put it in there? What was Frodo trying to show with that scene? Was Frodo trying to record the events of his journey, or was he trying to tell a story? I believe it was a combination of both. __________________ "....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5)

12-19-2003, 12:26 PM	#13
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	well, lotr is not from frodo's perspective in the books, but he wrote his perspective in the red book. does that make sense? __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

12-25-2003, 08:01 PM	#15
LeniFreak Hobbit Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In a small town in a small state in a...rather overlarge country Posts: 38	I always kind of liked the fox. It seemed sort of out of place with--yeah, pretty much every single other thing in the entire book otherwise, but I liked it. The addition of the fox--treated to thoughts as if a secondary character--gave an interesting idea of the Shire as a place where even this random fox is a legitimate part of life, in stark contrast to the rest of the book's concerns, where, even though in the end it comes down to individual minds and a piece of metal, the concepts are the sweeping moves of armies and humanity (intelligent-organismanity?) and whole worlds and ages and ways of life. Also, it produced a little bit of suspense--if even a fox notices something out of the ordinary as our favorite hobbits travel, how are we to expect that people, or worse yet, those black riders, aren't going to? __________________ "We are the people our parents warned us about." --Jimmy Buffett

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