lord of the rings= Allegory

All right, this isn't exactly an original topic because there's a heated debate going on at the Barrowdowns over it right now...but I'd like to know what you guys think.
A lot of people think that Tolkien's books are highly influenced by the Bible and that the trilogy may be an allegorical representation of the Bible. Then again, many say that thw World War affected him deeply and various characters in LOTR represent communists and capitalists and the like.
What do you think? Did Tolkien draw inspiration from the Bible or the world Wars or any other source? Or did he just tell a wonderful story about a world that existed for him?

I think he just told a story about a world that existed for him. Sure, he drew on lots of sources throughout his legendarium; not just the Bible, but also Norse mythology, Greek tragedy, Shakespeare, all sorts of things. As for the allegory bit, he expressly denies having written an allegory about WWII in the intro. to Fellowship. As he points out there, the general plotline of the story was set out in his mind a few years before the outset of WWII, so he couldn't have foreseen the parallels that some see between the story and events of the time. While JRRT certainly drew on his personal experience with war, I don't think he was consciously trying to portray the war that was occurring while he was writing LOTR.

He was trying to tell an original story in a framework of a mythology that suited his fancy.

I think he obviously was quite influenced by the Bible. And by war in general. WWI was called "Armageddon" by its generation. The factions of WWII were largely the same as WWI and to whatever extent Tolkien's involvement in WWI influenced his writing, its resonances with WWII would therefore be unavoidable, however unintended. The science fiction and speculation of the day anticipated weapons of great power.

Tolkien was a man of his time, and a deeply religious Christian, and also was steeped in the lore of Northern Europe, in the respective languages of their origin. So his outlook could be expected to be influenced, as Eruve said, from these diverse sources.

Yet these hold much in common and are wielded by Tolkien to reveal truths, beauties, and terrors that reach through our own perceptions and confirm to us some shared sense of Good and of Eternity and of value in our deeds upon this temporal Earth.




Of course, he may have simply wanted to make some money, and used whatever source material was handy. I prefer the former explanation.

Eruve and Gilthalion, you are so right (except for that We´re only in it for the money-bit!) and well put.

Certainly in such a rich production there must occur similarities to existing mythos of other times and cultures, but often such similarities are of an “archetypal” nature. It did not mean that Tolkien was roving scripture, collecting bits and pieces to incorporate in an eclectic and syncretistic way.

Tolkien´s entrance into the world of his making was his love for languages and philology. Inevitably, people also have found similarities from his invented languages to real ones. But not this either diminishes his ingenuity and originality. Has there ever been another author/scholar with Tolkien´s outlook, or was he totally unique?

one thing that struck me when i started to read LOTR is the similarities to the bible... i know tolkien denied any allegories, but it's not hard to beleive that he took elements from the greatest book ever written, and used them in his own novels (like many authors do, of course)

anyone ever consider this one? the dwarves = people of islamic persuasion

just look at all the similarities.

the dwarves were created by aule, one of the "forefathers" of middle earth. in the bible, people of the middle east with religious persuasion other than jewish/christian are descended from ishmael, son of abraham (a forefather in christian religion).

aule vaguely knew that illuvatar had plans for a "firstborn" to inhabit the world that had been forged. but aule grew impatient, and instead of trusting in illuvatar's plan, he forged his own creation; the dwarves. when illuvatar discovered the dwarves, he was of course rather angry and upset with aule. but he did not destroy the dwarves, and he showed kindess to them. even though they were not part of his original plan, he made a place for them in the grand scheme (even if they did have to sleep until the firstborn awoke)

in the bible, god told abraham that though he was very old, his wife would bear a child. abraham was impatient, so he knocked up a slave girl. she had ishmael. although this didn't go along with god's original plan, he showed kindness to both the girl and ishmael, and though their descendents weren't his "people", he cared for them and worked them into his plan.

also, there's the language factor. dwarvish words (khazad, for example) sound very middle-eastern to me. normally, in romantic languages you don't see the k+h a great deal. this one is just sort of a guess on my part, but i think that it is a valid one

so... what do you think about my senseless rambling?

The history of Arnor actually mirrors the fall of Moorish Spain very closely. You know, a powerful civilized kingdom splits up into petty princedoms that are eventually destroyed.

"'Long they builded us, long they wrought us, but they are gone.' They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.", Legolas remarked of the ruins lamenting when the Company were travelling through Hollin.

It is said there is a fountain in the shape of twelve lion's heads in the Alhambra. I have heard that the fountains spout water when it is time for Muslims to pray, but otherwise is dry. One of them is broken because someone took it apart to see how it worked.

Actually the Dwarves are more like the Jewish people:

1) The 7 Tribes of Dwarves are descended from the Seven Fathers. The 12 Tribes of Israel are descended from the 12 Sons of Jacob.

2) Historically, Dwarves and Jews have suffered many reversals, even losing their homelands more than once. Moria would be the Dwarvish equivalent of lost Zion.

3) Dwarves, like Jews have often been plundered for their wealth.

4) In popular folklore, Jews and Dwarves are often depicted as being rather greedy for gold (read Shakespeare), and a bit tight-fisted with money.

5) Jews and Dwarves do mingle with other races but otherwise keep apart. In medieval times, the Jews had rites and customs that are kept secret from the Europeans. Dwarven rituals are certainly secret. And if Khuzdul (Dwarf Language) sounds a bit like Arabic, remember that Hebrew is closely related to Arabic and sounds much the same.

*strange looking lurker steps into room*

If you don't mind, I'll put in my two cents, and then vanish again.


Tolkien was a strong Christian. In fact, he helped bring C.S.Lewis to Christ! Tolkien was in WW1. Part of his book was written during WW2. Surely these things affected his story somewhat. In a way, nothing is really original. When "making something up", you take from what you know and have seen and use that. So of course there are similarities. But I doubt that he meant them to be similarities, that's just the way it came out.

LoserKid1, your post was very interesting. I'd never thought of it that way. Also, the dwarves and elves never got along all that well...very interesting.

I have always been struck by how much The Hobbit is like the journey to the promised land. Gandalf=Moses Bard=Christ Smaug=Satan If I had time I'd look up some more of the similarities, but I'd better just vanish into the background again, and go back to my lurking!

Samuel

Are you joking? What are you, some kind of freak? Oh, ... sorry. Don't lurk! Come and stay a while! This is an Entmoot and much is to be decided yet! Let us not be hasty!

LOL, yes, as a matter of fact, I am a freak...a Juggling Jesus Freak! Yes, I'm sure that I'd have a real fun time here, but I already visit and post on three ezbaords, and I don't think I really have time for another, so I'll just lurk when I get the chance.

Well, the moot will be going on for a long time yet, you may 'lurk' among the trees if you wish. But come out and join in once in a while! There is a lot of room and a lot of time for joining and talking, and talking some more.

[samwise of the shire]

Whether Tolkien liked it or not alot of allegory and personal beliefs showed up in the Lord Of The Rings, so I think it might be cool to get into an in depth discussion of allegory and relegious themes in LOTR. One of them would be Humility and Pride and how it effects the charectars. Any Ideas?
Sam

[Bregalad]

We are all of us products of the culture we grow up in. Our religious beliefs, the country we grow up in, the state of the economy in our formative years; all of these things shape the way we think and the way we write. I certainly think that Tolkien's western (Christian/Catholic) religious beliefs shaped his stories. Perhaps not as blatently as in C. S. Lewis' Narnia series, but still an easily noticed effect. The western religions are all based on dicotomy. Good/bad, light/dark, blessed/evil. And this dicotomy is everywhere in Tolkien's books. Right now there is another thread talking all about everyone's "evil twin". I think we would have had a very different story if TLOR's had been written by a wealthy man in China, for example. There, possitive and negative forces are beyond "good" and "evil". They are two sides of the same coin, equally necessary and equally correct in the great scheme of things. I am certainly not suggesting that this would be a better book, only that it would be very different.
Actually, the elves of Tolkien's world have always reminded me of the "foxes" in Chinese folklore. Very beautiful, very powerful, wiser than man, and very just in their own way; but also harsh when they deemed it necessary, and strict in their dealings with mankind. The foxes are just, but they are not always kind.

[IronParrot]

There's a huge difference between allegory and applicability. Tolkien admitted the latter's presence as a byproduct of an entertaining story (and I would say it's the element that makes LOTR enduring).

Allegory involves extended metaphor on the part of the author...

Applicability is the discussion of how themes can be related to external issues by the reader.

I do have opinions on how good-versus-evil is actually not the primary conflict in LOTR, but I'll save that for another day...

[galadriel]

Tolkien's world definitely had strong religious and moral overtones in it. He wanted the world of Middle-earth to be the same world that we live in today, only thousands of years ago. Being a Catholic, his views of the world today are naturally going to be different than someone who is Buddhist, Jewish, atheist, etc. So, for all intents and purposes, Eru of the Silmarillion is the Christian God, Morgoth is Satan, and the Ainur are angels. The way that Tolkien expresses these characters are unique, but the underlying ideas are nearly identical.

[samwise of the shire]

The way that Tolkien expresses these characters are unique, but the underlying ideas are nearly identical.

Well I would'nt say that the GOOD themes can be found in the Bad Guys, I mean Humility is a MAJOR theme in LOTR but I would NOT add Humility to Sarumans list of characteristics, no offense to Galadriel if it seemed I was making fun of her. You hit the nail on the head Galadriel, I was hoping we could discuss one of those underlying themes you talked about. Any Ideas? I dont want to dominate the disscussion and the way my post was turning up I was doing what I did'nt want to do.
Sam

[galadriel]

Sorry for changing the subject, Samwise; I was replying more to Bregalad's comments than yours. But as for the subject of humility vs. pride:

Humility is definitely not shown in Saruman, that's for sure! He's a perfect example of a guy who started out all right, but let pride get the best of him. The same can be even seen of Sauron: in the beginning he was a Maia, a pupil of Aule, but his pride and lust for power made him join Morgoth's side. Denethor is another example of a character who made this fall. His need to control his own fate, instead of trusting Eru and the Valar to work things out, made him go so far as to commit suicide, nearly bringing Faramir down with him. Tolkien really has a lot to say about the relationship between pride and corruption.

Then, on the flip side, you've got Gandalf-types, stark opposites of Saruman. They understand that humility is the way to go, and that wielding the One Ring to defeat Sauron will just bring forth another Dark Lord. The mission of the Istari, the Wizards, was not to rule over Elves and Men, but to subtly guide them.

Both these attitudes are very central in Tolkien's views of good and evil. Again, we see his personal views in play, since pride is a major biblical component: the Bible is full of people who want to be powerful and not have God telling them what to do. They want to be their own god.

ok, I'll go finish my history homework now. Anyone else have ideas about themes in Tolkien???

[Renille]

There is a story in Catholic tradition of how God created the angels as perfect beings. One, named Lucifer, was made more powerful than the rest. To make a long story short, he became jealous of God's power, and turned evil. Lucifer publicly defied God, who sent the next strongest angel, Michael, to throw the evil one out of Heaven. Michael succeeded and became the most powerful and favored angel in God's eyes.

I thought it interesting to find almost the same story in the beginning of the Silmarillion, except with Melkor as Lucifer, Eru as God, and Manwe as Michael. (It was really cool!)

[SilverToungedDevil]

I'm sure that this may have been touched upon in earlier posts but redemption is another strong theme, giving someone a second chance to correct some prior mis-deed. Saruman and Gollum are the first ones that come to mind. Saruman, when Gandalf offered him the chance to renounce the darkness and Sauron and be forgiven," The Voice of Saruman ", instead his pride gets the better of him and Gandalf casts him out the Order and breaks his staff. There is a fair bit of overlap into galadriel's post above. Gollum is giving the chance to redeem himself by aiding Frodo and Sam in the journey to Mount Doom, and like Saruman ( not entirely convinced he fails though ) it is that one choice between giving in to his nature as it is or fighting it and taking some new direction and helping in some new cause that determines his fate. But the opportunity for redemption is presented.
That is roughly what I wanted to say, hopefully other posters will be able to add a bit more .

[SilverToungedDevil]

Just as I submitted my last post I realised that the really big theme of the book is that you are never too small to make a difference. That everyone has the potential within them to do great things, that all it takes is a bit of self-belief and self-worth.
As Elrond put it :

This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields and shake the towers and counsels of the Great

I would like to add Boromir to my selection of Saruman and Gollum in my last post, I've just remembered the nature of his death defending Perry and Merry from the Orcs, all after a "madness" took him after he tried to claim the Ring as his own.