What ommission would be most unwelcome in the next two films?

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 01-22-2002, 10:41 PM

I know this is sort of random, but it will break my heart if the Riders don't break out into battle-song as the charge the Pellanor Fields.

mirrille · 01-23-2002, 02:12 AM

Considering the number of songs there are in FotR and how few songs were in the movie, I'm not giving much hope that this particular musical treat that you've mentioned will be in there.

olsonm · 01-23-2002, 02:33 AM

That was a very cool part. Even better was just before that

when the Riders blew their horns, signaling their arrival to the

field.Remember, at the same moment Gandalf was staring down

the Witch King, and when the horns sounded Ol'Witchy nearly

fainted... Oh!, sorry about that F._D.

Captain Stern · 01-23-2002, 05:48 AM

I have a horrible fear that in the battle with the Witch King in ROTK, Merry won't be present and Eowyn will defeat him single handedly

Agburanar · 01-23-2002, 05:51 AM

I heard that they're cutting the Scouring of the Shire. Certainly they rushed through LothLorien and Sam didn't get his box of earth. It just shows how the film concentrated on gory violence over nice characterful touches.

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 01-23-2002, 12:58 PM

I did not nearly faint, I was just needed elsewhere. Please note that my very presence destroyed the momentum of the barbarian's cowardly sneak attack. And just after I had become the first enemy to ever breach the gates of Minas Tirith...I didn't even get to take a picture for my Deeds of Unspeakable Evil scrapbook.

PS - I've noticed a Queen_of_the_Nazgul skulking around...I was hoping her voice would never again be heard in this age of the world. Talk about a nag! "You always hang out with the other Nine, you never just spend time with me in Angmar, blah blah blah."

And I thought my Evil Lawyer made it clear during our Evil Divorce that I was to get custody of the "houses of lamentation" quote...

bropous · 01-23-2002, 01:04 PM

The make-or-break for me would be The Scouring of the Shire and Saruman's demise [Sharkey's End].

jerseydevil · 01-23-2002, 01:27 PM

From what everyone has posted - the Scouring of the Shire is out. I think Jackson wanted the movie to have a clean end with the destruction of the Ring. I was looking forward to that too. I'm hoping that everyone is wrong - but I have a funny feeling they're not - especially since I've heard nothing that contradicts the statements that Saruman dies at Isengard. I guess we'll see what happens in this regard when TT comes out.

I would say Shelob's lair - but since this is an "action scene" with cool special effects potential, I doubt Jackson will cut that out. I would like to see Frodo and Sam making their way through the marshes and in general anything that includes more character development.

Feraway Hawkbriar · 01-23-2002, 01:57 PM

But...But I needed to cry over that!....we neeeed the scouring of the Shire cause I've aleady cried over it in book form I need to cry over it in movie form tooo!.......life is so unfair.

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 01-23-2002, 02:36 PM

I'm not so sure that Jackson didn't make a good call by omitting the Scouring of the Shire. Of course we all love it, because we love the books, but like Tom Bombadil, it is a portion of the story that can be excised with little effect on the rest of the tale, except to sadden those of us who loved them. The story doesn't need Saruman after the breaking of Isengard: he has ceased to be a factor in the War of the Ring.

Remember: he has 9 hours to work with, and a great deal more than 9 hours worth of material, and he has fiduciary obligations to his studio and investors, so he needs to produce a film with mass market appeal. At what cost include the further adventuress of the Hobbits? Omit the Paths of the Dead? The last stand of the Captains of the West? The interplay between Sam and Gollum?

olsonm · 01-23-2002, 02:49 PM

Ol'Witchy's right. PJ's in a lose-lose situation.

jerseydevil · 01-23-2002, 03:35 PM

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if he did leave out the interaction between Sam and Gullum. I hope he didn't since it is an imporant aspect of the books. However it's nearly impossible to tell what Jackson is going to do with TT and ROTK since so much of FOTR was changed.

I have no idea of what to expect with Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor - in the books there is very little action - other than the marching of armies to Gondor. Since there was almost nonstop action in FOTR - I'm not expecting him to tone it down in TT or ROTK.

The goal should not have been to make just a block buster - they knew they were going to make tons of money on this film. They should have made an epic adventure that matched up to the soul and heart of the books. I don't think that jackson succeeded here - at least in terms of character development. I''m sure the scenery and weapons and everything in TT and ROTK will be absolutely fantastic, but most of the characters just don't come alive for me. I'm hoping that they will by the time TT is over with. I hope I feel the same about Frodo in Shelob's Lair as I did when I read the books, but I'll just have to see once TT comes out.

Like I said in another post - with the amount of times Frodo "died" in FOTR - everyone will just say "Dead again? You've got to be joking." Frodo's death scenes should have been toned down a little - so Shelob could be a more powerful moment. I actually thought that Frodo was dead when I read it. I cheated though (I fought hard not to - but in the end gave in) - I looked at the back of ROTK and saw that he was still alive. Everyone will realize that frodo is strill alive I guess once the advertisng for ROTK starts - but I still think that Shelobs Lair will have less impact because of the two over the top death scenes in FOTR.

In terms of the Scouring of the Shire, I'm not saying it was or wasn't a big part of the book. I don't know if I would have kept it in - most likely I would have kept parts in though. It does show how much the hobbits had grown during their adventure. I disagree that it's the same as Tom Bombadil - I did not think that he was as important to the overall story.

jerseydevil · 01-23-2002, 04:05 PM

I have it!!! I know what Jackson is going to do.

He has to have Arwen in there - she has to make an appearance in TT - otherwise the unintelligent viewers (like all of us unintelligent nonhollywood types) won't remember her when she appears in ROTK.

Jackson's going to have Elrond send Arwen to Mordor (somehow he must know that Frodo left the Fellowship), wielding her sword and incantations; she saves Frodo AGAIN - this time from a 10,000 force orc army!! She then leads Sam and Frodo through Mordor. Gullum just sssneakssss and followsssss from behind , never giving the audience a good look at him until the climatic conclusion at Mt Doooom! Arwen gets to take out a few orc armies on the way - thus helping out Aragorn and making sure she takes the "strong female" role in the Mordor scenes, not to mention the additional cool action scenes.

Or maybe in the movie Eowyn doesn't even exist (or at the most a very minor character). Determined to join the Fellowship, Arwen leaves Rivendell - against Elrond's wishes - to fight along side her beloved Aragorn. Dressed as a man, she rides Shadowfax (yeah, I know Gandalf's horse, but she looks better on it) at break neck speed to meet up with Aragorn in Isengard. Aragorn, not realizing it's her (even though he speaks to her several times during the course of the movies thus becoming friends) - finds 'him/her", after she killed the nazgul, lying near fatally wounded on the ground and goes to help. To his horror - it's Arwen!!! It has the love scene that we need and the heart-wrenching tragedy. He raises his voice calling out in desperation for someone to save her. Suddenly Galadriel appears as a phantom before Aragorn. His hands on Arwen's heart and Galadriel's hands on top of Aragorn's head - Galadriel's magic flows through him to save his beloved. This way we have two strong female characters and Jackson gets to weaken Aragorn even more.

Just two ideas of how Jackson could more appeal to the mass public. A little cliched - but you really can't get two complicated with movie goers today. Just give us things that have come before and we'll be happy.

And don't forget NONSTOP ACTION!

olsonm · 01-23-2002, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Foul_Dwimmerlaik
I did not nearly faint, I was just needed elsewhere.

But when the horns sounded you should have seen the look on your face....er... you know what I mean!

Renille · 01-23-2002, 11:27 PM

jerseydevil, I hope you were kidding. I really, really, really, really, really hope that's not a slight possibility. Or I'LL faint...

Anyway. What I was wondering was how PJ will set the movie up? Will it be in the book's form-Aragorn and co. and then Sam and Frodo,the other way around, or a one scene and then the other type deal.

jerseydevil · 01-23-2002, 11:37 PM

I figure he's going to mix the two books together. Which I think makes sense for the movie.

Concerning my senarios - I think we all have to wait to see how Jackson "interprets" ROTK and TT. I hope I'm wrong too.

olsonm · 01-23-2002, 11:38 PM

Renille, I've heard that it will be 'one scene and then the other type deal'. I'm pretty sure that's how it will be.

olsonm · 01-23-2002, 11:41 PM

You're wrong jerseydevil. THANK GOD!!!

Sakata · 01-23-2002, 11:57 PM

No! Jackson wont leave out the scouraging of the shire because there where scenes of it when Frodo looked in Galadriels mirrior remeber?

olsonm · 01-24-2002, 12:08 AM

Sorry Sakata, those scenes weren't from the scouring.

Galadriel(Blanchett): "This is what will happen... if you fail."

Though it's still possible the scouring will in the movie <keeps

fingers crossed>

01-22-2002, 10:41 PM	#1
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	What ommission would be most unwelcome in the next two films? I know this is sort of random, but it will break my heart if the Riders don't break out into battle-song as the charge the Pellanor Fields. __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

01-23-2002, 05:48 AM	#4
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	RE I have a horrible fear that in the battle with the Witch King in ROTK, Merry won't be present and Eowyn will defeat him single handedly __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

01-23-2002, 12:58 PM	#6
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	I did not nearly faint, I was just needed elsewhere. Please note that my very presence destroyed the momentum of the barbarian's cowardly sneak attack. And just after I had become the first enemy to ever breach the gates of Minas Tirith...I didn't even get to take a picture for my Deeds of Unspeakable Evil scrapbook. PS - I've noticed a Queen_of_the_Nazgul skulking around...I was hoping her voice would never again be heard in this age of the world. Talk about a nag! "You always hang out with the other Nine, you never just spend time with me in Angmar, blah blah blah." And I thought my Evil Lawyer made it clear during our Evil Divorce that I was to get custody of the "houses of lamentation" quote... __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

01-23-2002, 01:04 PM	#7
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	The make-or-break for me would be The Scouring of the Shire and Saruman's demise [Sharkey's End]. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-23-2002, 01:27 PM	#8
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	From what everyone has posted - the Scouring of the Shire is out. I think Jackson wanted the movie to have a clean end with the destruction of the Ring. I was looking forward to that too. I'm hoping that everyone is wrong - but I have a funny feeling they're not - especially since I've heard nothing that contradicts the statements that Saruman dies at Isengard. I guess we'll see what happens in this regard when TT comes out. I would say Shelob's lair - but since this is an "action scene" with cool special effects potential, I doubt Jackson will cut that out. I would like to see Frodo and Sam making their way through the marshes and in general anything that includes more character development. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-23-2002, 02:12 AM	#2
mirrille Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 479	Considering the number of songs there are in FotR and how few songs were in the movie, I'm not giving much hope that this particular musical treat that you've mentioned will be in there.

01-23-2002, 02:33 AM	#3
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	That was a very cool part. Even better was just before that when the Riders blew their horns, signaling their arrival to the field.Remember, at the same moment Gandalf was staring down the Witch King, and when the horns sounded Ol'Witchy nearly fainted... Oh!, sorry about that F._D.

01-23-2002, 05:51 AM	#5
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	I heard that they're cutting the Scouring of the Shire. Certainly they rushed through LothLorien and Sam didn't get his box of earth. It just shows how the film concentrated on gory violence over nice characterful touches.

01-23-2002, 01:57 PM	#9
Feraway Hawkbriar Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California Posts: 348	But...But I needed to cry over that!....we neeeed the scouring of the Shire cause I've aleady cried over it in book form I need to cry over it in movie form tooo!.......life is so unfair. __________________ "The barks goes ever on and on out from the dog where they began. He's out there crapping on my lawn. Till I hit him with my van."

01-23-2002, 02:36 PM	#10
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	I'm not so sure that Jackson didn't make a good call by omitting the Scouring of the Shire. Of course we all love it, because we love the books, but like Tom Bombadil, it is a portion of the story that can be excised with little effect on the rest of the tale, except to sadden those of us who loved them. The story doesn't need Saruman after the breaking of Isengard: he has ceased to be a factor in the War of the Ring. Remember: he has 9 hours to work with, and a great deal more than 9 hours worth of material, and he has fiduciary obligations to his studio and investors, so he needs to produce a film with mass market appeal. At what cost include the further adventuress of the Hobbits? Omit the Paths of the Dead? The last stand of the Captains of the West? The interplay between Sam and Gollum? __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

01-23-2002, 02:49 PM	#11
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	Ol'Witchy's right. PJ's in a lose-lose situation.

01-23-2002, 03:35 PM	#12
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Actually I wouldn't be surprised if he did leave out the interaction between Sam and Gullum. I hope he didn't since it is an imporant aspect of the books. However it's nearly impossible to tell what Jackson is going to do with TT and ROTK since so much of FOTR was changed. I have no idea of what to expect with Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor - in the books there is very little action - other than the marching of armies to Gondor. Since there was almost nonstop action in FOTR - I'm not expecting him to tone it down in TT or ROTK. The goal should not have been to make just a block buster - they knew they were going to make tons of money on this film. They should have made an epic adventure that matched up to the soul and heart of the books. I don't think that jackson succeeded here - at least in terms of character development. I''m sure the scenery and weapons and everything in TT and ROTK will be absolutely fantastic, but most of the characters just don't come alive for me. I'm hoping that they will by the time TT is over with. I hope I feel the same about Frodo in Shelob's Lair as I did when I read the books, but I'll just have to see once TT comes out. Like I said in another post - with the amount of times Frodo "died" in FOTR - everyone will just say "Dead again? You've got to be joking." Frodo's death scenes should have been toned down a little - so Shelob could be a more powerful moment. I actually thought that Frodo was dead when I read it. I cheated though (I fought hard not to - but in the end gave in) - I looked at the back of ROTK and saw that he was still alive. Everyone will realize that frodo is strill alive I guess once the advertisng for ROTK starts - but I still think that Shelobs Lair will have less impact because of the two over the top death scenes in FOTR. In terms of the Scouring of the Shire, I'm not saying it was or wasn't a big part of the book. I don't know if I would have kept it in - most likely I would have kept parts in though. It does show how much the hobbits had grown during their adventure. I disagree that it's the same as Tom Bombadil - I did not think that he was as important to the overall story. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-23-2002, 04:05 PM	#13
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Arwen's role expanded in Two Towers and Return of the King I have it!!! I know what Jackson is going to do. He has to have Arwen in there - she has to make an appearance in TT - otherwise the unintelligent viewers (like all of us unintelligent nonhollywood types) won't remember her when she appears in ROTK. Jackson's going to have Elrond send Arwen to Mordor (somehow he must know that Frodo left the Fellowship), wielding her sword and incantations; she saves Frodo AGAIN - this time from a 10,000 force orc army!! She then leads Sam and Frodo through Mordor. Gullum just sssneakssss and followsssss from behind , never giving the audience a good look at him until the climatic conclusion at Mt Doooom! Arwen gets to take out a few orc armies on the way - thus helping out Aragorn and making sure she takes the "strong female" role in the Mordor scenes, not to mention the additional cool action scenes. Or maybe in the movie Eowyn doesn't even exist (or at the most a very minor character). Determined to join the Fellowship, Arwen leaves Rivendell - against Elrond's wishes - to fight along side her beloved Aragorn. Dressed as a man, she rides Shadowfax (yeah, I know Gandalf's horse, but she looks better on it) at break neck speed to meet up with Aragorn in Isengard. Aragorn, not realizing it's her (even though he speaks to her several times during the course of the movies thus becoming friends) - finds 'him/her", after she killed the nazgul, lying near fatally wounded on the ground and goes to help. To his horror - it's Arwen!!! It has the love scene that we need and the heart-wrenching tragedy. He raises his voice calling out in desperation for someone to save her. Suddenly Galadriel appears as a phantom before Aragorn. His hands on Arwen's heart and Galadriel's hands on top of Aragorn's head - Galadriel's magic flows through him to save his beloved. This way we have two strong female characters and Jackson gets to weaken Aragorn even more. Just two ideas of how Jackson could more appeal to the mass public. A little cliched - but you really can't get two complicated with movie goers today. Just give us things that have come before and we'll be happy. And don't forget NONSTOP ACTION! __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-23-2002 at 05:07 PM.

01-23-2002, 11:27 PM	#15
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	jerseydevil, I hope you were kidding. I really, really, really, really, really hope that's not a slight possibility. Or I'LL faint... Anyway. What I was wondering was how PJ will set the movie up? Will it be in the book's form-Aragorn and co. and then Sam and Frodo,the other way around, or a one scene and then the other type deal. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-23-2002, 11:37 PM	#16
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I figure he's going to mix the two books together. Which I think makes sense for the movie. Concerning my senarios - I think we all have to wait to see how Jackson "interprets" ROTK and TT. I hope I'm wrong too. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-23-2002, 11:38 PM	#17
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	Renille, I've heard that it will be 'one scene and then the other type deal'. I'm pretty sure that's how it will be.

01-23-2002, 11:41 PM	#18
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	You're wrong jerseydevil. THANK GOD!!!

01-23-2002, 11:57 PM	#19
Sakata Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 216	No! Jackson wont leave out the scouraging of the shire because there where scenes of it when Frodo looked in Galadriels mirrior remeber? __________________ "When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES!

01-24-2002, 12:08 AM	#20
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	Sorry Sakata, those scenes weren't from the scouring. Galadriel(Blanchett): "This is what will happen... if you fail." Though it's still possible the scouring will in the movie <keeps fingers crossed>

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