Who is Eldest: Fangorn or Bombadil?

bropous · 01-03-2002, 12:19 PM

Please forgive me if this issue has already been brought up.

Bombadil is identified as the Oldest, and Fatherless, by both Elrond and Glorfindel at the Council of Elrond. Yet, when Gandalf the White returns to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the eaves of Fangorn, he identifies Treebeard as "the oldest of the ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-Earth".

So which is it? Is Bombadil the Firstborn, or is it Fangorn?

Many thanks for any thoughts you fellow Entmooters might have for this Enting....

andustar · 01-03-2002, 12:29 PM

I hate to do this, but...
"oh no, not again...."

this question has been asked about as many times as "do Balrogs have wings"... search on Tolkien mbs and you will find many in-depth discussions of this...

My personal answer is "Bombadil" as from what I have heard he doesn't really belong IN Middle Earth, but was there before it, or some such thing... but I leave this to the experts, or at least, those who are lucky enough to own a copy of Letters, which I have never read but am told has something about this.

Tell me if you reach any sort of conclusive proof either way

emplynx · 01-03-2002, 04:52 PM

I read an essay recently about Tom Bombadil being a Valar. It has some extremely good proof which would make Tom older than Fangorn but not the oldest thing in the middle earth. That essay can be found here.

Thorongil · 01-03-2002, 05:27 PM

I have always believed Bombadil to be the representation of Manwe on Earth

But there are a few out there who believe him to be a manifestation of Eru

So I think its Bombadil

Ñólendil · 01-03-2002, 07:55 PM

That Tom's a Vala is one of the more absurd theories.

Tom is older than Treebeard, naturally, as he was there for the first acorn to drop. Treebeard is called 'the oldest living thing', while Tom describes himself as 'Eldest'. Tom is not actually eldest if you're talking about anyone (in which case God takes the cake), but he was in Arda (where his life began) before anyone else, it would appear. But here's my answer:

Treebeard is oldest living thing + Tom is Eldest = Tom is not a living thing = Tom is older than Treebeard.

Tom is never said to be alive. We know he's a spirit, but it would appear that he can't be a living thing in order to be 'eldest'.

bropous · 01-04-2002, 12:02 PM

Hmmmmm. I really can't accept the explanation that Bombadil is a Valar, either, as he isn't listed as one in the Valaquenta. I also think the assertion that he a "representative of Manwe on Earth" really has no writings from Tolkien to back it up.

As for him not being actually alive, now there's a poser. I can't find a quote from the books which state he was actually alive, heck, I just took it for granted.

I think mayhaps that here we have one of the very few inconsistencies Tolkien himself admitted were present in the books. I don't really understand, however, if this is the case, why the Master did not go back and make an editorial change. Who knows, maybe he left it in to see who was really paying attention!

Polishing me shield and oiling me elven boots, preparing for tomorrow's midwinter assault on Mount Mindolluin {Pikes Peak}...from the paradise of the Rockies...all the best, fellow travellers!

ChildofEru · 01-04-2002, 05:01 PM

i have always expected tom to be one of the valar/maiar
my friend whom i trust to have a good sized knowledge of Tolkien says Tom is Tulkas, it makes sense. both are extremely jolly, and have mass amounts of power. this would also show why he wasnt tempted by the ring when he put it on.

bropous · 01-04-2002, 06:16 PM

Hmmm, again, I must take slight, yet polite, exception, ChildofEru. Unless someone else can find it, I am unable to find any reference anywhere that would make Tom Bombadil even an incarnation of any of the Valar. I am certainly open to counter-point on this issue. Can you cite a source from the books? Admittedly, I've never read Unfinished Tales or the later books released by Tolkien's son Christopher. Maybe someone who has can let us know if Bombadil is covered in greater detail in them?

andustar · 01-11-2002, 09:38 AM

nice one, inoldil! That's a damn good answer. I like it.

Radagast · 02-06-2002, 01:03 PM

Yes, but Celeborn, when talking to Fangorn himself, says in response to Fangorn's question: 'I do not know, ELDEST'

So if Bombadil calls himself Eldest then Celeborn is wrong. This seems unlikely as he is an Elf and a wise one at that.

I personally believe Bombadil is the Eldest.

allsirgarnet · 02-06-2002, 01:38 PM

It seems generally accepted that Tom is a Spirit of some sort,so even though hes in ME he may not be of it,and possibly may not be considered as "living" as opposed to existing.

If you accept this it becomes easier.

Tom has "existed" in ME the longest,but Fangorn/Treebeard has "lived" the longest so he is the longest living thing.

With regard to Celeborns reply of Eldest to Fangorn it probably means "eldest living being" in ME as in "eldest,related by birth in ME as in living beings",whereas Tom is using "Eldest" as a comparative term (i'm older than anything but not related to them as living beings).

Any clearer?

Radagast · 02-06-2002, 02:01 PM

Interesting.

Pailan · 02-06-2002, 03:05 PM

Also, bp, might I suggest this link:Encyclopedia of Arda

Go to the Alphabetical Index and look up Tom Bombadil. The Essay they provide, while not complete is very interesting (and well thought out, imho).

Wayfarer · 02-06-2002, 05:27 PM

Both.

Fangorn was the eldest of the Ents.

But Bombadil was the eldest, period.

Legolas_BowKing · 02-07-2002, 07:09 AM

Do you know what really gives me the shits!! When somebody asks a sensible question that hasn't been part of the entmoot all that long and they get the reply "Oh no not this question again". Hey here is a good idear DONT READ THE THREAD IF IT ANOYS YOU THAT MUCH. Because unlike some of you "hardcore" LotR fans some of us havent been here all that long and we dont know that the "has the balrog got wings" question has been asked hundreds of times! So get your head out of your arse and dont be so sarcastic!!
Oh and also here is a good idear why dont some of you people get a bit of a personality! If someone says something dumb or stupid on purpose TELL THEM!! Dont be so f#%$^ resnable and pretend we are all a big happy family. Jeez a bit of conflict would make this place half interesting!!
And were is the Mad angry face there are only f#$%^& happy ones!!

Laurelyn · 02-07-2002, 07:59 AM

Legolas, in response to what you just said, go see my response to the thread you started in order to say thatc . . "all you mooters read this its important" I think the title was.

There's the mad face.

Btw, Legolas, if you can't find anything nice to say, kindly shut your trap.

Now, on the note of the discussion: You guys have brought up some interesting points here. However, I think Bombadil was the Eldest.

barrelrider110 · 02-07-2002, 12:11 PM

Way to go Aussie! What a fun thread! Frankly I've been scratching my head about this one for years, and no, I havn't yet seen any discussion (tho I've seen the one with the Balarog with wings a few times). Anyway I'll go with the majority here-- Treebeard may be ME's elder statesman but Tom was around first.

ragamuffin92 · 02-07-2002, 12:22 PM

I posted this elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here. I'm reading "Letters," and the only comment I've come across on Tom so far is that the Professor said he was "an enigma-and intentionally so." No known origin or nature. IMHO, I believe if Tom was a Vala or Maia, the author would have said so SOMEplace.
I think the inclusion of Bombadil in the trilogy was just the Ol' Perfessor having some fun, since the character was created in a separate series of stories (or poems? I forget--lost the book) before LOtR was written.

bropous · 02-08-2002, 11:47 AM

I agree with your first paragraph, ragamuffin92. Bombadil is probably as the professor said, an enigma, and purposefully so.

[Just as an aside: JRR says in Letters that the LotR is not a trilogy...just published in that format at the behest of his publishers....]

barrelrider110 · 02-08-2002, 11:55 AM

That's it!
So Bombadil said he's "eldest"
Fangorn said he's "oldest"
But Bombadil is an enigma, so only the perfesser knows, and he ain't tellin'.

Tom should email Fangorn and they can sort it out and get back to us.

01-03-2002, 12:19 PM	#1
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Who is Eldest: Fangorn or Bombadil? Please forgive me if this issue has already been brought up. Bombadil is identified as the Oldest, and Fatherless, by both Elrond and Glorfindel at the Council of Elrond. Yet, when Gandalf the White returns to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the eaves of Fangorn, he identifies Treebeard as "the oldest of the ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-Earth". So which is it? Is Bombadil the Firstborn, or is it Fangorn? Many thanks for any thoughts you fellow Entmooters might have for this Enting.... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-03-2002, 12:29 PM	#2
andustar Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: London Posts: 217	I hate to do this, but... "oh no, not again...." this question has been asked about as many times as "do Balrogs have wings"... search on Tolkien mbs and you will find many in-depth discussions of this... My personal answer is "Bombadil" as from what I have heard he doesn't really belong IN Middle Earth, but was there before it, or some such thing... but I leave this to the experts, or at least, those who are lucky enough to own a copy of Letters, which I have never read but am told has something about this. Tell me if you reach any sort of conclusive proof either way __________________ ~ andustar/shani

01-03-2002, 05:27 PM	#4
Thorongil Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Plymouth....UK Posts: 18	I have always believed Bombadil to be the representation of Manwe on Earth But there are a few out there who believe him to be a manifestation of Eru So I think its Bombadil __________________ Thorongil men called him in Gondor,the Eagle of the star, for he waskeen eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak, but none knew his true name nor in what land he was born.He came to Ecthelion from Rohan, where he had served King Thengel, but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men, by land or sea,but departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.

01-03-2002, 07:55 PM	#5
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	That Tom's a Vala is one of the more absurd theories. Tom is older than Treebeard, naturally, as he was there for the first acorn to drop. Treebeard is called 'the oldest living thing', while Tom describes himself as 'Eldest'. Tom is not actually eldest if you're talking about anyone (in which case God takes the cake), but he was in Arda (where his life began) before anyone else, it would appear. But here's my answer: Treebeard is oldest living thing + Tom is Eldest = Tom is not a living thing = Tom is older than Treebeard. Tom is never said to be alive. We know he's a spirit, but it would appear that he can't be a living thing in order to be 'eldest'. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-04-2002, 12:02 PM	#6
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Hmmmmm. I really can't accept the explanation that Bombadil is a Valar, either, as he isn't listed as one in the Valaquenta. I also think the assertion that he a "representative of Manwe on Earth" really has no writings from Tolkien to back it up. As for him not being actually alive, now there's a poser. I can't find a quote from the books which state he was actually alive, heck, I just took it for granted. I think mayhaps that here we have one of the very few inconsistencies Tolkien himself admitted were present in the books. I don't really understand, however, if this is the case, why the Master did not go back and make an editorial change. Who knows, maybe he left it in to see who was really paying attention! Polishing me shield and oiling me elven boots, preparing for tomorrow's midwinter assault on Mount Mindolluin {Pikes Peak}...from the paradise of the Rockies...all the best, fellow travellers! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-03-2002, 04:52 PM	#3
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I read an essay recently about Tom Bombadil being a Valar. It has some extremely good proof which would make Tom older than Fangorn but not the oldest thing in the middle earth. That essay can be found here.

01-04-2002, 05:01 PM	#7
ChildofEru Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 24	i have always expected tom to be one of the valar/maiar my friend whom i trust to have a good sized knowledge of Tolkien says Tom is Tulkas, it makes sense. both are extremely jolly, and have mass amounts of power. this would also show why he wasnt tempted by the ring when he put it on. __________________ Theres a lesson here... its better to watch stuff then to do stuff - Homer Simpson

01-04-2002, 06:16 PM	#8
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Hmmm, again, I must take slight, yet polite, exception, ChildofEru. Unless someone else can find it, I am unable to find any reference anywhere that would make Tom Bombadil even an incarnation of any of the Valar. I am certainly open to counter-point on this issue. Can you cite a source from the books? Admittedly, I've never read Unfinished Tales or the later books released by Tolkien's son Christopher. Maybe someone who has can let us know if Bombadil is covered in greater detail in them? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-11-2002, 09:38 AM	#9
andustar Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: London Posts: 217	nice one, inoldil! That's a damn good answer. I like it. __________________ ~ andustar/shani

02-06-2002, 01:03 PM	#10
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	Yes, but Celeborn, when talking to Fangorn himself, says in response to Fangorn's question: 'I do not know, ELDEST' So if Bombadil calls himself Eldest then Celeborn is wrong. This seems unlikely as he is an Elf and a wise one at that. I personally believe Bombadil is the Eldest. __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. Last edited by Radagast : 08-05-2004 at 11:43 AM.

02-06-2002, 01:38 PM	#11
allsirgarnet Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 25	It seems generally accepted that Tom is a Spirit of some sort,so even though hes in ME he may not be of it,and possibly may not be considered as "living" as opposed to existing. If you accept this it becomes easier. Tom has "existed" in ME the longest,but Fangorn/Treebeard has "lived" the longest so he is the longest living thing. With regard to Celeborns reply of Eldest to Fangorn it probably means "eldest living being" in ME as in "eldest,related by birth in ME as in living beings",whereas Tom is using "Eldest" as a comparative term (i'm older than anything but not related to them as living beings). Any clearer?

02-06-2002, 02:01 PM	#12
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	Interesting. __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought. Last edited by Radagast : 08-05-2004 at 11:44 AM.

02-06-2002, 03:05 PM	#13
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	Another useful TB link Also, bp, might I suggest this link:Encyclopedia of Arda Go to the Alphabetical Index and look up Tom Bombadil. The Essay they provide, while not complete is very interesting (and well thought out, imho). __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

02-06-2002, 05:27 PM	#14
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Both. Fangorn was the eldest of the Ents. But Bombadil was the eldest, period. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-07-2002, 07:09 AM	#15
Legolas_BowKing Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 115	Do you know what really gives me the shits!! When somebody asks a sensible question that hasn't been part of the entmoot all that long and they get the reply "Oh no not this question again". Hey here is a good idear DONT READ THE THREAD IF IT ANOYS YOU THAT MUCH. Because unlike some of you "hardcore" LotR fans some of us havent been here all that long and we dont know that the "has the balrog got wings" question has been asked hundreds of times! So get your head out of your arse and dont be so sarcastic!! Oh and also here is a good idear why dont some of you people get a bit of a personality! If someone says something dumb or stupid on purpose TELL THEM!! Dont be so f#%$^ resnable and pretend we are all a big happy family. Jeez a bit of conflict would make this place half interesting!! And were is the Mad angry face there are only f#$%^& happy ones!!

02-07-2002, 07:59 AM	#16
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Legolas, in response to what you just said, go see my response to the thread you started in order to say thatc . . "all you mooters read this its important" I think the title was. There's the mad face. Btw, Legolas, if you can't find anything nice to say, kindly shut your trap. Now, on the note of the discussion: You guys have brought up some interesting points here. However, I think Bombadil was the Eldest. __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-07-2002, 12:11 PM	#17
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	Way to go Aussie! What a fun thread! Frankly I've been scratching my head about this one for years, and no, I havn't yet seen any discussion (tho I've seen the one with the Balarog with wings a few times). Anyway I'll go with the majority here-- Treebeard may be ME's elder statesman but Tom was around first. __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling

02-07-2002, 12:22 PM	#18
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	I posted this elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here. I'm reading "Letters," and the only comment I've come across on Tom so far is that the Professor said he was "an enigma-and intentionally so." No known origin or nature. IMHO, I believe if Tom was a Vala or Maia, the author would have said so SOMEplace. I think the inclusion of Bombadil in the trilogy was just the Ol' Perfessor having some fun, since the character was created in a separate series of stories (or poems? I forget--lost the book) before LOtR was written.

02-08-2002, 11:47 AM	#19
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I agree with your first paragraph, ragamuffin92. Bombadil is probably as the professor said, an enigma, and purposefully so. [Just as an aside: JRR says in Letters that the LotR is not a trilogy...just published in that format at the behest of his publishers....] __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-08-2002, 11:55 AM	#20
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	That's it! So Bombadil said he's "eldest" Fangorn said he's "oldest" But Bombadil is an enigma, so only the perfesser knows, and he ain't tellin'. Tom should email Fangorn and they can sort it out and get back to us. __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling

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