The Ring Speaks?

[Forkbeard]

Elsewhere on the Net a discussion has raged on whether or not the Ring speaks. So I'd like to get comments and an unscientific poll of those present.

In RoTK, "Mount Doom", Frodo and Sam are on their way up the volcano when Gollum attacks them. Frodo beats Gollum off, tells him to get down, he can't do anything to Frodo now.

Then:

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire spoke a commanding voice.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

So whom do readers think is the speaker here, Frodo or the Ring?

[Twista]

doesnt sound like frodo... thats all im saying. lol

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire."
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I know this has been argued from both sides, but I don't see why. To me the above quote would obviously be Frodo (a figure robed in white) and the Ring being (a wheel of fire).

[Lefty Scaevola]

I think that it is the mental command of Frodo, projected through the ring., and that this command is very likely a cause of Gollum falling into the fire a little later.

[durin's bane]

I agree. It was most likely the Ring projecting some kind of image of Frodo.

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by durin's bane
most likely the Ring projecting some kind of image of Frodo.

yes, that's what I've thought too. It' Frodo speaking, not the Ring, though the Ring enhances Frodo's words or power or something.

[Wayfarer]

No, I think it's the ring speaking- at the very least, it was speaking through Frodo, but sam's vision has the words being spoken by the ring itself.

[The Gaffer]

Hmm. Maybe this is supposed to be a glimpse of the power the ring could offer someone who could wield it properly. So, to my mind, the answer would be "a ring-enhanced Frodo".

My guess is that this discussion derives from the whisperings that Jackson inserted to convey the temptation characters felt from the ring.

[Attalus]

I don't see why the Ring would say such a thing, even if it had a voice, which I doubt. I am quite sure that the Ring would have infinitely preferred Gollum as a Ringbearer than Frodo, whom I am quite sure the Ring knew was trying to destroy it. But, like it or no, Frodo had power as a Ringbearer, especially on the slopes of Orodruin, so near the Sammath Naur where it was forged. I think that the words were Frodo's, magnified and given force, not only by the Ring itself, but by Gollum's oath on it.

[Bacchus]

I think it's Frodo, but a Ring-corrupted Frodo. Recall that he is soon to claim the Ring for his own. The arrogance of the command certainly stems from the corruption of the Ring-can you imagine Frodo saying any such thing in Ithilien?

The thought that the Ring itself is making this command doesn't pass the smell test for me. Compare this scene with the one of Sam on the stairs of the Tower confronting Snaga. If the Ring were capable of issuing its own commands, I feel that that encounter would have been far different.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Bacchus
I think it's Frodo, but a Ring-corrupted Frodo. Recall that he is soon to claim the Ring for his own. The arrogance of the command certainly stems from the corruption of the Ring-can you imagine Frodo saying any such thing in Ithilien?

The thought that the Ring itself is making this command doesn't pass the smell test for me. Compare this scene with the one of Sam on the stairs of the Tower confronting Snaga. If the Ring were capable of issuing its own commands, I feel that that encounter would have been far different.

I agree with Bacchus. My feeling is that Ring does not have the power to act on its own; instead, it influences other people to act on its behalf. For example, when Gollum (and others) the Ring, the Ring didn't leap off their hands or anything, but it did cause them to be momentarily careless.

[Wayfarer]

Come on, people, look at the facts.

In this situation, we are presented with the following (from samwise's point of view):

Frodo appears as a figure holding a wheel of fire at his breast, facing gollum, who appears as a shadowy figure. Out of the wheel comes a commanding voice.

Now...

-Before this passage there are at least two times in which Frodo compares the ring to 'a wheel of fire.' At one point he says that this is all he can see.

-The ring has already been treated as though having a mind and will since the very beginning of the tale.

-It is made explicitly clear that the voice sam hears comes 'out of the fire'. NOT from the figure.

-If Frodo had been speaking, Tolkien was a good enough writer to say so.

If Tolkien has gone to the effort of making it clear that frodo isn't speaking, it's pretty foolish to go on with this claptrap about 'mental commands' and such nonsense.

[jerseydevil]

How can we be sure of what Sam saw or heard though. Frodo wasn't robed in white - so Sam only seems to have pictured him like that. Doesn't it go to reason that maybe Sam also pictured the voice coming from the "fire"? I don't think the ring said anything - anymore than Frodo miraculously was robed in white. I think both were purely in Sam's imagination.

...Sam saw these two rivals with other vision...

It's sort of like when Frodo sees Bilbo in Rivendell and he shows him the Ring...

...a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands.

No one really thinks that Bilbo turned into this.

I do find it ironic that Tolkien chose Frodo to appear strong and clothed in white - but yet without feeling - this is moments before he claims the ring as his own. White is usually a sign of goodness - but the description of Frodo isn't necessarily of goodness and he ultimately succumbed to the evil of the Ring moments later.

...before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figured robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Thorin II
My feeling is that Ring does not have the power to act on its own; instead, it influences other people to act on its behalf.

I think the Ring is capable to act on its own. It slips off Isildur's finger in the river when he's fleeing from the Orcs, and I also think the Ring decided to leave Gollum, and in some way slipped off him too, for Bilbo to find it. Though I agree that it doesn't speak.

[Fat middle]

I'd try to develop later. This is a very interesting topic.

I tend to agree with Attalus in this, but I'd want to introduce now a point that may be important: who wrote this scene, Frodo (from what Sam might have told him) or Sam? Frodo, and then Sam modified it?

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Fat middle
I'd try to develop later. This is a very interesting topic.

I tend to agree with Attalus in this, but I'd want to introduce now a point that may be important: who wrote this scene, Frodo (from what Sam might have told him) or Sam? Frodo, and then Sam modified it?

I believe Frodo wrote the scene, although it was certainly done from Sam's input.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
So whom do readers think is the speaker here, Frodo or the Ring?

Frodo of course, everybody knows rings don't have vocal cords.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think the Ring is capable to act on its own. It slips off Isildur's finger in the river when he's fleeing from the Orcs, and I also think the Ring decided to leave Gollum, and in some way slipped off him too, for Bilbo to find it. Though I agree that it doesn't speak.

Certainly possible, but that's not how I see it. How can it "cause" itself to slip off a finger? If it could do that, couldn't it have rolled itself out of the riverbed sometime in the 2500 years it sat there? It makes more sense to me to think that the Ring's power is over the hearts and minds of those around it. As such, it can act indirectly by imposing its will on others.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Certainly possible, but that's not how I see it. How can it "cause" itself to slip off a finger? If it could do that, couldn't it have rolled itself out of the river sometime in the 2500 years it sat there?

Perhaps it can control its own size, shrinking and growing at will. It would explain why it would both fit the hand of a grown man and that of a hobbit.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Perhaps it can control its own size, shrinking and growing at will. It would explain why it would both fit the hand of a grown man and that of a hobbit.

Yes, that's how I think of it also.