Why didnt Frodo.....

[Twista]

Firsty, id just like to say i love the books and films as much as anyone and i dont think anything should be changed, however..

I was thinking if Gandalf was such a clever person, why didnt he just get one of his eagle friends, set Frodo off on one of them. and then as they flew over The Mountain of Fire Frodo could just throw the ring into the mountain? lol. It wouldnt have saved alot of death and not what. Wouldnt of left much of a story though would it? lol

[Valandil]

Mmmmm... some have wondered about this before. I forget which threads. I think the general consensus is that (apart from having a story ) the eagles didn't really see themselves as a 'Middle-Earth Taxi Service'. There may have been other problems: What happens if the Eagle gets Frodo there and THEN Frodo decides he doesn't want to throw The Ring in? Or - what if the Eagle is spotted (a bit hard to hide in the air) and Mordor makes every effort to stop it?

For whatever reasons, the Council of Elrond concluded this was a problem that needed to be solved by the Free Peoples of Middle Earth: Elves, Men, Dwarves and Hobbits.

And, btw... welcome!

[Twista]

ok 'Taxi Service' lol. You'd think they do everyone this one favour.

- Elrond is too logisical, 1000's would have lived if they'd done this.

- The eagle could just fly at 20.000 ft and they nose dive to the mount doom at the last moment

- and Gandalf should have gone with him to make sure he got the job done lol.


BUT... i guess this is all irrevant, lol, as at the end of the day it would tarnish a great story.

[Attalus]

This has been discussed many times and the consensus is, IIRC, that the Eagle would have been spotted by one of Sauron's spies, if not the Nazgûl. Then, once Sauron realised that the Ringbearer was on board, the whole gaff would have been blown, and he would have put a guard in the Sammath Naur, defeating the whole Quest. Remember, secrecy was key, and an Eagle in Mordor would have been highly visible. They were not small birds.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Twista
- The eagle could just fly at 20.000 ft and they nose dive to the mount doom at the last moment

And, are you sure there's enough air up there to breathe and fly in? Frodo, at least, would freeze to death probably.

What does IIRC mean by the way?

I'm sure everyone's cpmtemplated this at some point - I did anyway. I've never been in a thread about it though.

Welcome to the Moot.

[Thorin II]

I've wondered about this, too. I like to think Tolkien had a better reason than just "it makes a better story" to have the Quest.

The answer that's always seemed best to me is the one suggested by Attalus: an eagle would draw the gaze of Sauron and would be intercepted before the Ring could be destroyed.

In a similar vein, it's always bothered me that Frodo ended up being the Ringbearer. As much as Elrond prefers a small company (for secrecy), wouldn't Glorfindel have been better equipped to fulfill the Quest? Surely, he would've had less trouble with some of the roadblocks that nearly sunk Frodo (Shelob, various orcs, etc.).

To that end, my thought has always been that hobbits were resilient to the power of the Ring, in part because their nature prevented them from being seduced by power. Glorfindel (or any other lord-type individual) would not have been able to resist the Ring long enough to complete the Quest. Is that pretty much the consensus?

[Nurvingiel]

Glorfindel would have been a good member of the company, but not as the Ringbearer himself. Hobbits resist the Ring better than Elves, Men or Dwarves.

[The Gaffer]

Very good question, and it's also good that Tolkien doesn't answer it.

I think the key is in the "free peoples" comment Valandil made. The eagles did not do what people asked; they intervened when they (or Manwe) decided that they should. As servants of Manwe, it wasn't their role to decide the fate of Middle-Earth. Remember that the Wizards were limited in how they could deploy their powers? It was up to the Free Peoples to deal with it, which is kind of the whole point of the story.

You could also ask why the Powers would not allow the Ring to be sent over the Sea for safe keeping; the answer would be similar.

[Beor]

I know that this probably isnt relative but if I was an eagle and I carried Frodo all the way to Orodruin, and then he dediced he wanted to keep the ring, I would just thrown them both in.

In regards to the topic, I think The Gaffer hit it when he mentioned that the eagles were servants of Manwe, and of course Manwe isnt going to help, hell, it took the Valar the entire first age before they helped with Morgoth.

[Draken]

I think just about everyone wonders about this at some time! I like the suggestion that the eagles should be regarded as almost a neutral force of nature rather than a potential ally.

On the practicalities side, flying into a Mordor still run by Sauron at the height of his powers would I'm sure be very hazardous, mostly down to the Nazgul.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Beor
In regards to the topic, I think The Gaffer hit it when he mentioned that the eagles were servants of Manwe, and of course Manwe isnt going to help, hell, it took the Valar the entire first age before they helped with Morgoth.

The Valar already helped the free people of ME by sending the Istari. Manwe himself chose Gandalf, as written in UT. I can't see a reason why Manwe wouldn't want to dfestroy the Ring, if it was possible, in the easiest way. There was probably something else there.

The first age was shorter than the time between the beginning of the third to 'The Great Years'.

orioginally posted by Twista
- The eagle could just fly at 20.000 ft and they nose dive to the mount doom at the last moment

It doesn't mean the Eye of Sauron won't see them.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I think the key is in the "free peoples" comment Valandil made. The eagles did not do what people asked; they intervened when they (or Manwe) decided that they should. As servants of Manwe, it wasn't their role to decide the fate of Middle-Earth. Remember that the Wizards were limited in how they could deploy their powers? It was up to the Free Peoples to deal with it, which is kind of the whole point of the story.

Good point, the eagles would aid when they saw fit but they can hardly be expected to do all the hard work by themselves.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Good point, the eagles would aid when they saw fit but they can hardly be expected to do all the hard work by themselves.

Would it really be hard work for them? To fly a hobbit from Gondor to Mordor?

[Wayfarer]

It would have been a trip of several thousand miles by air. On top of that, it would have been a suicide mission without much chance of success.

I think I can see why they wouldn't have.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
It would have been a trip of several thousand miles by air.

No it wouldn't. I'm not talking here about a trip from the Misty Mountains to Mordor - which is proabbly thousand miles - I' talking about Gondor. Not more than 250 miles, I think - from Minas Tirith to Orodruin.

I do agree, though, they can't just get into Moirdor and thrwo the ring.

[Twista]

Well if the Valar interviene at important points (destruction of Melkor). Then even if Sauron took the ring, and had ultimate power, would the valar not interviene at this point?

[brownjenkins]

i've always believed that elrond and gandalf knew that no one, including themselves, or any hobbit, could willingly toss the ring into mount doom (i discussed this a bit in a recent isildur thread)

just look at frodo's revulsion when gandalf tosses the ring in his fireplace at the beginning of the series... they knew some greater power (fate, the valar, whatever) had to move events in a way that would bring about the ring's destruction

so, for the most part, they let events take their own course... frodo made his own choices, gollum was left alive, gandalf didn't immediately track down frodo when he returned as the white... instead of trying to control the ring's destiny, which probably would have lead to their own corruption, they were content playing a part in the events of the time, but letting fate decide the ring's ultimate destiny

[azalea]

My thoughts are along the lines of what others have said in this vein, that there are varied reasons such as:
1. The Eagles are really their own race, apart from the Free Peoples, and thus are not as concerned with their dealings as one might hope. Their rescues in LotR have more to do with a loyalty to Gandalf and to act when called upon by the side of good than an active presence in the world of elves, dwarves, and men.
2. The Valar were no longer taking a physically active role in the governing of ME. As servants of Manwe, the Eagles are bound by this.
3. Who's to say the Eagle carrying Frodo might not have become tempted through his proximity to the Ring, as Boromir and Galadriel were?
4. Regarding the question of why the Valar wouldn't have used the Eagles to help the Free Peoples by taking the Ring, I think the main reason is the sacred adherence to Freewill. The Valar realized that in order for the world to succeed, it must be governed by its inhabitants, and that Freewill is so important that it must be strictly enforced, so to speak (poor choice of words,but I can't think of the phrase I needed). That means that, like Gandalf, the Eagles cannot intervene unless absolutely necessary, (and they even less so, since Gandalf was sent for the very purpose of helping). It must be done by one of the Children. You know, the Ents are similar. They end up helping for a critical moment to turn the tide, and then are removed from the action.


Regarding whether the Valar would help if things turned out badly, or why they don't help: apart from the Freewill thing I mentioned, I say -- maybe they were! We don't know what kind of influence there was from outside Arda. They might have somehow influenced events in ways that ensured that each being would have freewill in his choices, but also aided the beings once their choice had been made. For instance, you could say in some ways that ending up in the Barrow Downs helped, since it was there that Merry got the sword that helped kill the Witch King. Who's to say that the Valar didn't either cause them to end up in the mound, or that they were the ones that strengthened Frodo's heart, so that he then made the choice to do what he did, which in turn strengthened his own character, not because of what they did, but because of his own view of what he had done.
If that makes any sense. IOW, their influence could either have been event-based, but hidden and subtle, or it could have been an influence on the spirit of the characters themselves. Like Gandalf lit fires within their hearts, the Valar could have had a similar influence, and still have kept the integrity of each being's free will. They would kindle the hearts, and give the character strength, then the character would be able to endure whatever hardship he was experiencing, and have the presence of mind to make an heroic choice. Or once the character had chosen a direction, the Valar may have influenced events to the advantage of the character. Who knows, it's just a theory.

[Twista]

a very intersting theory at that. What i can't seem to get my head around is that then why did they choose to interviene with Melkor then? Why not leave that to the frre peoples of that time?

[Attalus]

Because Eärendil appeared with one of the Silmarils and pled with them, don'tya know?

But the Host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë.