Gandalf vs. the Nazgul at Amon Sul

Bacchus · 12-11-2003, 11:58 AM

In a (now closed) thread on the movies forum, I made reference to Gandalf's battle with the Nine at Weathertop. Jerseydevil commented that the text is ambiguous on whether all Nine were actually present. Upon review of the relevent passages in The Council of Elrond, I find that he is correct that Gandalf does not explicitly say that he battles all Nine. However, my opinion is that immediately following statements referring to the folly of seeking Frodo in the Wild with all the Nine at his heels, and the fact that Gandalf drew off four leaving only five to attack the camp on 6 October, strongly implies that all Nine were present at Amon Sul on 3 October.

Thoughts?

mithrand1r · 12-11-2003, 02:04 PM

Will need to re-read relavent sections later tonight.

One possiblilty:

If some of the black riders found Gandalf @ Amon Sul they may have rounded up the others, thinking that Gandalf would travel with Frodo and the ring would be found nearby. By the time Gandalf left weathertop, all nine gathered around Amon Sul and were at his heels.

(just a thought)

Attalus · 12-11-2003, 03:48 PM

Quote:

'So I stayed [at Bree] that night, wondering much what had become of the Riders; for only of two had there been any news in Bree, it seemed. But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west and they threw down the gates and rode through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them.
'I do not know, but it seems clear to me that this is what happened. Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead through the village and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled at Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.
'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. [snip]
'At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels'

(italics mine) This seems to me to indicate that "all the Nine" were present at the siege of Gandalf at Weathertop.

Kirinki54 · 12-11-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
(italics mine) This seems to me to indicate that "all the Nine" were present at the siege of Gandalf at Weathertop.

I believe so too.

IIRC some people like to quote Gandalf to Denethor on the WK:

Quote:

But our trial of strength is yet to come.

and take this as proof that the WK was not present at Weathertop. I myself do not interpret his saying like that.

Attalus · 12-11-2003, 07:32 PM

Ah, another grenade to avoid. There should be an official sticky, perhaps called "Bones of Contention."

jerseydevil · 12-11-2003, 07:48 PM

Since I was the one that brought this arguement up. I will state my views.

Quote:

Originally posted by mithrand1r
One possiblilty:

If some of the black riders found Gandalf @ Amon Sul they may have rounded up the others, thinking that Gandalf would travel with Frodo and the ring would be found nearby. By the time Gandalf left weathertop, all nine gathered around Amon Sul and were at his heels.

This is what I am thinking. I have always thought that possibly afterward they all tried to follow Gandalf. I can't see all of them going after Gandalf on Weathertop - since he didn't have the Ring and it would be too easy for it to have slipped past them in the night while they were battling. I feel some of them must have stayed to watch the road and then at daylight - went to follow Gandalf.

Attalus · 12-12-2003, 12:07 AM

I really don't feel that more than one or two of them had that much will. That would be the Witch-King and Khamul.

Attalus · 12-12-2003, 12:10 AM

That would be Khamûl, the Terror of the East.

Wayfarer · 12-12-2003, 09:31 PM

The impression I got of the matter was this: That gandalf fought the assembled nine, and escaped, and that only half of them followed him while the rest stayed and watched Amon Sul. These were the five that Frodo and co. were attacked by.

The other four lost Gandalf at some point, and broke off to stand guard over the last bridge. Glorfindel came and forced them away, so they fell back to the fords of rivendell, which was where they were when the company (pursued by the remaining five) came upon them.

mithrand1r · 12-12-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
(italics mine) This seems to me to indicate that "all the Nine" were present at the siege of Gandalf at Weathertop.

thanks for the quote.

FOTR: The Council of Elrond
(p259 from 1 vol. book Printed by Houghton Mifflin Co.)

I agree with you and think the text would imply that Gandalf faced all nine at Amon Sul.

It seems that Gandalf could hold his own for a while against the nine.

Dúnedain · 12-13-2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The impression I got of the matter was this: That gandalf fought the assembled nine, and escaped, and that only half of them followed him while the rest stayed and watched Amon Sul. These were the five that Frodo and co. were attacked by.

The other four lost Gandalf at some point, and broke off to stand guard over the last bridge. Glorfindel came and forced them away, so they fell back to the fords of rivendell, which was where they were when the company (pursued by the remaining five) came upon them.

That's how I understand it as well, thanks for typing it for me

Attalus · 12-13-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mithrand1r
thanks for the quote.

FOTR: The Council of Elrond
(p259 from 1 vol. book Printed by Houghton Mifflin Co.)

I agree with you and think the text would imply that Gandalf faced all nine at Amon Sul.

It seems that Gandalf could hold his own for a while against the nine.

LOL, you are welcome.

12-11-2003, 11:58 AM	#1
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	Gandalf vs. the Nazgul at Amon Sul In a (now closed) thread on the movies forum, I made reference to Gandalf's battle with the Nine at Weathertop. Jerseydevil commented that the text is ambiguous on whether all Nine were actually present. Upon review of the relevent passages in The Council of Elrond, I find that he is correct that Gandalf does not explicitly say that he battles all Nine. However, my opinion is that immediately following statements referring to the folly of seeking Frodo in the Wild with all the Nine at his heels, and the fact that Gandalf drew off four leaving only five to attack the camp on 6 October, strongly implies that all Nine were present at Amon Sul on 3 October. Thoughts? __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

12-11-2003, 02:04 PM	#2
mithrand1r Cyber Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place Posts: 986	Will need to re-read relavent sections later tonight. One possiblilty: If some of the black riders found Gandalf @ Amon Sul they may have rounded up the others, thinking that Gandalf would travel with Frodo and the ring would be found nearby. By the time Gandalf left weathertop, all nine gathered around Amon Sul and were at his heels. (just a thought) __________________ Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC)

12-11-2003, 07:32 PM	#5
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Ah, another grenade to avoid. There should be an official sticky, perhaps called "Bones of Contention." __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-12-2003, 12:07 AM	#7
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I really don't feel that more than one or two of them had that much will. That would be the Witch-King and Khamul. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-12-2003, 12:10 AM	#8
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	That would be Khamûl, the Terror of the East. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-12-2003, 09:31 PM	#9
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	The impression I got of the matter was this: That gandalf fought the assembled nine, and escaped, and that only half of them followed him while the rest stayed and watched Amon Sul. These were the five that Frodo and co. were attacked by. The other four lost Gandalf at some point, and broke off to stand guard over the last bridge. Glorfindel came and forced them away, so they fell back to the fords of rivendell, which was where they were when the company (pursued by the remaining five) came upon them. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR	Wally	Lord of the Rings Movies	425	08-14-2016 08:43 AM
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?	Gordis	Middle Earth	141	07-09-2006 07:16 PM
LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor	Beren3000	LOTR Discussion Project	31	02-09-2006 02:46 AM
LotR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider	mithrand1r	LOTR Discussion Project	14	10-25-2005 09:55 AM