Breaking of the World...and other questions :P

Dúnedain · 11-06-2003, 11:51 AM

Recently, I've re-read the Return of the King and last night I was flipping through the Appendix and re-read the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. It came to bring up more questions that I've had in reading Tolkien for years now. First, I've never read the HoME series so I am not sure if it's included in there. I know I don't remember reading this in Unfinished Tales or the other books of Tolkien I've read. Near the end of the tale it is written:

Quote:

From A Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: Appendix A (v)

'"Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world."

Now my question is this. Does Tolkien speak further of the breaking of the world? It's pretty easy to assume he is talking about the end of the world of Men and Middle Earth. Also, considering in Appendix A, the title of this is "A Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen". Does that mean that it is spoken of in greater length elsewhere?

In addition to all of this, another question arose about Eldarion, Arwen and Aragorn's son. Now, by blood, Eldarion is one of the key people of the Fourth Age. And the reference of his names meaning, 'Descendant of the Eldar', suggests that is of great importance as well. I mean to be such an important character in the history of Men and to not know much about his life stinks! Is there anything written further about him and his heirs as well? I mean judging from the fact that Arwen's and Aragorn's daughters are unnamed kinda puts a damper on the history of the line of Men going into the Fourth Age or even the distinct line of heirs following Eldarion.

Ultimately, all the pieces of the characters we know and love all tie together and show an ending, I was just curious if anyone knew something further about the above things. I know there are references made about Eldarion in HoME, but not much. I don't know of any about the breaking of the world, so any incite is much welcomed

The Gaffer · 11-06-2003, 11:59 AM

I presumed that by "breaking of the world" he meant the downfall of Numenor.

Dúnedain · 11-06-2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I presumed that by "breaking of the world" he meant the downfall of Numenor.

Ok I see what you are saying now, I just re-read it again

Well either way, lol, does Tolkien write about the end of the Time of Men? and the "breaking of the world" afterwards...

Bacchus · 11-06-2003, 12:12 PM

I agree.[edit-with the Gaffer] Look at the phrase immediately preceeding the bolded portion. "...an image of the splendour of the Kings of men in glory undimmed...". I think this clearly alludes to the Numenoreans before their unrest and Downfall.

One of the major themes of LOTR is the decline of Elves and Men from the heroic past. Aragorn was a throwback to his greater sires.

Dúnedain · 11-06-2003, 12:20 PM

Turambar1982 · 11-07-2003, 07:19 AM

as far as i know havin read SIL,LOTR,HOBBIT,hoME (but only once),UT, ...
There is no mention of the end of ME except in SIL where it says that the music of the Ainur (and comrades) will be more beautiful @ the end.
i think it says somewhere (don't remember where but i believe also SIL) that men and elves will join in a last battle with melkor/morgoth (but i could be wrong on that one).

Dúnedain · 11-07-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Turambar1982
as far as i know havin read SIL,LOTR,HOBBIT,hoME (but only once),UT, ...
There is no mention of the end of ME except in SIL where it says that the music of the Ainur (and comrades) will be more beautiful @ the end.
i think it says somewhere (don't remember where but i believe also SIL) that men and elves will join in a last battle with melkor/morgoth (but i could be wrong on that one).

Hmmm, been about 6 months since I read The Sil but I don't remember about the last battle thing, maybe someone else can confirm that, that'd be cool though

***azalea*** · 11-07-2003, 04:00 PM

I think it's actually in one of the HoME books, and talks about Feanor's return at the final battle. I don't know which book it is, though.

Artanis · 11-07-2003, 04:57 PM

It's in HoME 4, the Quenta Noldorinwa:

Quote:

Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate,(7) and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall the Silmarils' be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods.'

Dúnedain · 11-07-2003, 05:47 PM

Wow that's awesome! Thanks Artanis!!

Does HoME speak any of the 4th age and of Men after Aragorn?

Artanis · 11-07-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Wow that's awesome! Thanks Artanis!!

Does HoME speak any of the 4th age and of Men after Aragorn?

You're welcome.

There is an unfinished story in HoME 12, 'The new shadow', taking place about 100 yrs after the death of Aragorn, during the period when Eldarion was king. Tolkien abandoned it after a few pages, in a couple of his letters he said he didn't think it worth doing.

Dúnedain · 11-08-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
You're welcome.

There is an unfinished story in HoME 12, 'The new shadow', taking place about 100 yrs after the death of Aragorn, during the period when Eldarion was king. Tolkien abandoned it after a few pages, in a couple of his letters he said he didn't think it worth doing.

Oh that really stinks

Attalus · 11-08-2003, 11:07 AM

Darn it, Artanis beat me to it; but that is fitting, since it was she that brought my attention to that passage in the first place.

Oh, and I agree with JRRT about The New Shadow. Without magic and the High Elves, the Fourth age is just "drear Mundania," as Piers Anthony would say.

Dúnedain · 11-08-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
Darn it, Artanis beat me to it; but that is fitting, since it was she that brought my attention to that passage in the first place. Oh, and I agree with JRRT about The New Shadow. Without magic and the High Elves, the Fourth age is just "drear Mundania," as Piers Anthony would say.

See I disagree, I think the 4th age would be like a rebirth of Man, especially that of the line of Aragorn, because the bloodline is more pure back like it was in the days of old with Numenor...Too bad we don't get to see that

Turambar1982 · 11-09-2003, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
It's in HoME 4, the Quenta Noldorinwa:

i thought to be somewhere although i wasn't sure.

Attalus · 11-09-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
See I disagree, I think the 4th age would be like a rebirth of Man, especially that of the line of Aragorn, because the bloodline is more pure back like it was in the days of old with Numenor...Too bad we don't get to see that

Then read it and see: It is printed in its entirety in HoME 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth, starting on page 409.

Dúnedain · 11-09-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
Then read it and see: It is printed in its entirety in HoME 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth, starting on page 409.

I'm not saying that wasn't said, I am saying that in my opinion the 4th age wouldn't have been boring and would be something of interest to me...

**Nurvingiel** · 12-07-2003, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I presumed that by "breaking of the world" he meant the downfall of Numenor.

That's how I think of it, based on the Silmarillion.

Finrod Felagund · 12-19-2003, 02:06 PM

The breaking of the world is when Numenore was destroyed, Val;inor removed from the physical earth and the earth changed from a flat disc to it's current spheric shape.

11-06-2003, 12:12 PM	#4
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	I agree.[edit-with the Gaffer] Look at the phrase immediately preceeding the bolded portion. "...an image of the splendour of the Kings of men in glory undimmed...". I think this clearly alludes to the Numenoreans before their unrest and Downfall. One of the major themes of LOTR is the decline of Elves and Men from the heroic past. Aragorn was a throwback to his greater sires. __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

11-06-2003, 12:20 PM	#5
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	__________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen Last edited by Dúnedain : 11-06-2003 at 12:32 PM.

11-07-2003, 05:47 PM	#10
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Wow that's awesome! Thanks Artanis!! Does HoME speak any of the 4th age and of Men after Aragorn? __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

11-08-2003, 11:07 AM	#13
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Darn it, Artanis beat me to it; but that is fitting, since it was she that brought my attention to that passage in the first place. Oh, and I agree with JRRT about The New Shadow. Without magic and the High Elves, the Fourth age is just "drear Mundania," as Piers Anthony would say. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-19-2003, 02:06 PM	#19
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	The breaking of the world is when Numenore was destroyed, Val;inor removed from the physical earth and the earth changed from a flat disc to it's current spheric shape. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

11-06-2003, 11:59 AM	#2
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I presumed that by "breaking of the world" he meant the downfall of Numenor.

11-07-2003, 07:19 AM	#6
Turambar1982 Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: gera, thuringia, germany Posts: 29	as far as i know havin read SIL,LOTR,HOBBIT,hoME (but only once),UT, ... There is no mention of the end of ME except in SIL where it says that the music of the Ainur (and comrades) will be more beautiful @ the end. i think it says somewhere (don't remember where but i believe also SIL) that men and elves will join in a last battle with melkor/morgoth (but i could be wrong on that one).

11-07-2003, 04:00 PM	#8
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I think it's actually in one of the HoME books, and talks about Feanor's return at the final battle. I don't know which book it is, though.