Big ears and long legs?

Kirinki54 · 10-01-2003, 07:40 AM

Since Tom Bombadil seems so popular, I will make a new thread about him.

Two related questions:
1) How could Tom perceive Frodo´s singing at the barrow?
2) How could he get there in seconds flat?

Grateful for your thoughts!

The Gaffer · 10-01-2003, 09:12 AM

We have no words for Tom, nor his powers, so you have to go to his own words:

He is Master. No-one has ever caught him.

Since he's been there since the year dot, that must include Morgoth himself in the Dark Years. Springing a careless hobbit from a barrow ought to be a piece of cake (and it was).

LOTR is full of things that look like metaphors but which turn out to be literally true. This is one of those cases.

Attalus · 10-01-2003, 10:22 AM

Hi, Kirinki! Tom Shippy says it best in The Road to Middle-Earth:

Quote:

The thing we would like to know about Tom Bombadil is what he is, but this is never asked or answered directly. In Chapter 7 Frodo raises the courage to ask instead who he is, only to receive the answers, from Goldberry, (1)'He is,' (2) 'He is, as you have seen him', (3) 'He is the Master of water, wood, and hill', and from Tom himself (4) 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer.' He seems in fact to be a lusus naturae, a one-member category; the hobbits are doubtful whether he can be called a man, though he looks like one apart from his size, which is intermediate between man and hobbit.

He goes on about his fearlessness, which is absolute.

Jedi X · 10-01-2003, 04:44 PM

Tom is time!

...and you run, and you run, to catch up with the sun...

durin's bane · 10-01-2003, 05:46 PM

Well, I think Tom Bombadil was following them. But of course, he's...magic. So he can do things that most things can't.

Elf Girl · 10-01-2003, 05:59 PM

It depends on what you think Tom is. But that's another thread.

Kirinki54 · 10-02-2003, 03:22 AM

I think you are all simplifying this too much. Of course the question of Tom´s abilities must be link somehow to his true nature. That is unavoidable. But we can still discuss the former without getting stuck on the latter.
Say for example that Tom was a Maia gone native as some advocate. As Tom Bombadil he was very much incarnated. Could he then have teleported himself? IMHO there are no other such examples of incarnated Maiar having the ability of instant transportation.

Comic Book Guy · 10-08-2003, 07:01 PM

There are several theories and ideas on Toms true identity, which have probably been discussed on this board alone about 56 times. A few ideas that are generaly thrown about is that he is

Eru
Maia
Valar (Specificaly Tulkas, they have similar descriptions)
Eru
One of the blue wizards

The tolkien sarcasm page has the most killer parody of the chapter "The House of Tom Bombadil".

Theres also a short collection of poems that Tolkien wrote for dying relation or something that were compiled into a book called the "The adventures of Tom Bombadil". I think it's been republished recently. Though I remember Darth Tater telling me that it's mostly nonsense and obviously had no relevance to Middle-Earth.

Elf Girl · 10-08-2003, 07:05 PM

I've read that. It is mostly nonsense, but I like it.

LutraMage · 10-11-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
There are several theories and ideas on Toms true identity, which have probably been discussed on this board alone about 56 times. A few ideas that are generaly thrown about is that he is
Eru

Maia

Valar (Specificaly Tulkas, they have similar descriptions)

Eru

One of the blue wizards

Well, if Tom is Eru, that explains several mysteries. As the creator, presumably he has the power to be everywhere at once and everywhere in time, so hearing Frodo and getting to the barrow wouldn't be a problem. It might also explain why he doesn't interfere unless asked (he only helps Frodo when Frodo remembers the verse).

However, this doesn't really stack up with Gandalf's view at the Council of Elrond that Tom doesn't have the power to hide the ring forever - if he was really Eru Tom could, presumably, have 'un-made' the ring himself, let alone kept it safe.

So, I guess he ain't Eru after all. Drat, back to the drawing board.

kiwi52291 · 10-12-2003, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LutraMage
However, this doesn't really stack up with Gandalf's view at the Council of Elrond that Tom doesn't have the power to hide the ring forever - if he was really Eru Tom could, presumably, have 'un-made' the ring himself, let alone kept it safe.

So, I guess he ain't Eru after all. Drat, back to the drawing board.

He could be still be Eru because it could be that he just doesn't WANT to destroy the ring.

Sheeana · 10-13-2003, 01:57 AM

No because Eru never came into the circles of the world.

***azalea*** · 10-13-2003, 09:41 AM

I think that would have caused a theological problem for Tolkien, because having Eru incarnate as Tom would give him too much of a Jesus-like role, but he was not intended to be that at all.

Attalus · 10-13-2003, 10:00 AM

I totally agree that having TB be Eru would be totally against all Catholic (and orthodox Christian) belief that the Incarnation was a unique event. Why on Middle-Earth would an alll-powerful being, who obviously was closely attending to the War of the Ring ("Bilbo was intended to find it and not by its maker") act so blase about this matter? No, I continue to hold that Tom is a lusus naturae, a freak of Nature.

***Valandil*** · 10-13-2003, 10:10 AM

I don't think there's any way TB could be Eru. Remember the discussion about him at Rivendell? He had concern ONLY for his little part of the world. Also - didn't they say that if Sauron won - eventually even TB's Old Forest would fall? Eru on the other hand, DOES concern himself with what happens to the entire world. We see it in all of Gandalf's statements about what was suposed to be or meant to be.

Nor do I think he was a Vala - they were all out west - and didn't come back to ME.

I think, if he must be fit into the order of ME beings, he was a Maia. Perhaps he had devoted himself to the creation of that little corner of ME and invested himself so heavily in it - that he couldn't bear to leave it - and retained power over it and in it. It doesn't matter that he has different "powers" or "gifts" than other Maia we know of (ie - not made invisible by the ring, able to see Frodo, not otherwise affected by ring) - they were a diverse group when physically manifest on Middle Earth. Think how widely each of the following vary in what they can do and how they do it: Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Rhadagast, Melian, Balrogs - all Maiar!

Goldberry too! And her daddy was probably also Maia, under Ulmo - in charge of a river.

Kirinki54 · 10-14-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
There are several theories and ideas on Toms true identity, which have probably been discussed on this board alone about 56 times. A few ideas that are generaly thrown about is that he is

Eru

Maia

Valar (Specificaly Tulkas, they have similar descriptions)

Eru

One of the blue wizards

The tolkien sarcasm page has the most killer parody of the chapter "The House of Tom Bombadil".

Theres also a short collection of poems that Tolkien wrote for dying relation or something that were compiled into a book called the "The adventures of Tom Bombadil". I think it's been republished recently. Though I remember Darth Tater telling me that it's mostly nonsense and obviously had no relevance to Middle-Earth.

What is the matter with yoy people!? Any and all discussions about Tom turning over to his real nature...

BTW you forgot my favorite which is Tom being the writer, eg Tolkien. And the dumbest one is IIRC Tom being the Witch-king!

Bombadillo · 10-14-2003, 06:30 PM

Well as Mr Bean put it: "Magic"

But to elaborate a bit
Tom is. He is his own element of the story, and he should be tackled individually. Since he's more or less there for JRR Tolkien's own amusement, I feel justified in treating him differently, if you get me. I don't believe that there are any right or wrong theories concerning Tom, so I don't bother to wonder much. All I know for sure is that he is inexplicably strange.

Ainaromenel · 10-20-2003, 11:06 PM

I think Tolkien put Tom into the story just to add depth to the story of the Hobbits leaving the Shire. It is their own adventure, just between the four of them. Maybe it was too convintient that he only looks after his section of Middle Earth. I definately don't think he was Eru or a Valar, though the idea of him being a Maia explains a few things. If he was a Maia, maybe he could have been following the Hobbits in his spirit form, and then put the body form back on. I would say that there is no where that I know of that indicates that the Maia can teleport. Tolkien didn't stoop to that. Whatever the case, as lovable as Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are, outside of hardening the Hobbits and giving them more depth, I don't think they played any major role in Middle Earth. There's no mention of either in The Silmarillion, and I have yet to hear of any mention in the Letters and HofME.

10-01-2003, 07:40 AM	#1
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	Big ears and long legs? Since Tom Bombadil seems so popular, I will make a new thread about him. Two related questions: 1) How could Tom perceive Frodo´s singing at the barrow? 2) How could he get there in seconds flat? Grateful for your thoughts! __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

10-01-2003, 09:12 AM	#2
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Magic We have no words for Tom, nor his powers, so you have to go to his own words: He is Master. No-one has ever caught him. Since he's been there since the year dot, that must include Morgoth himself in the Dark Years. Springing a careless hobbit from a barrow ought to be a piece of cake (and it was). LOTR is full of things that look like metaphors but which turn out to be literally true. This is one of those cases.

10-01-2003, 04:44 PM	#4
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	Tom is time! ...and you run, and you run, to catch up with the sun... __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-01-2003, 05:46 PM	#5
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	Well, I think Tom Bombadil was following them. But of course, he's...magic. So he can do things that most things can't. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

10-01-2003, 05:59 PM	#6
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	It depends on what you think Tom is. But that's another thread. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

10-02-2003, 03:22 AM	#7
Kirinki54 Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: European Union Posts: 463	I think you are all simplifying this too much. Of course the question of Tom´s abilities must be link somehow to his true nature. That is unavoidable. But we can still discuss the former without getting stuck on the latter. Say for example that Tom was a Maia gone native as some advocate. As Tom Bombadil he was very much incarnated. Could he then have teleported himself? IMHO there are no other such examples of incarnated Maiar having the ability of instant transportation. __________________ 'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

10-08-2003, 07:01 PM	#8
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	There are several theories and ideas on Toms true identity, which have probably been discussed on this board alone about 56 times. A few ideas that are generaly thrown about is that he is Eru Maia Valar (Specificaly Tulkas, they have similar descriptions) Eru One of the blue wizards The tolkien sarcasm page has the most killer parody of the chapter "The House of Tom Bombadil". Theres also a short collection of poems that Tolkien wrote for dying relation or something that were compiled into a book called the "The adventures of Tom Bombadil". I think it's been republished recently. Though I remember Darth Tater telling me that it's mostly nonsense and obviously had no relevance to Middle-Earth.

10-08-2003, 07:05 PM	#9
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	I've read that. It is mostly nonsense, but I like it. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

10-13-2003, 01:57 AM	#12
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	No because Eru never came into the circles of the world.

10-13-2003, 09:41 AM	#13
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I think that would have caused a theological problem for Tolkien, because having Eru incarnate as Tom would give him too much of a Jesus-like role, but he was not intended to be that at all.

10-13-2003, 10:00 AM	#14
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I totally agree that having TB be Eru would be totally against all Catholic (and orthodox Christian) belief that the Incarnation was a unique event. Why on Middle-Earth would an alll-powerful being, who obviously was closely attending to the War of the Ring ("Bilbo was intended to find it and not by its maker") act so blase about this matter? No, I continue to hold that Tom is a lusus naturae, a freak of Nature. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-13-2003, 10:10 AM	#15
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I don't think there's any way TB could be Eru. Remember the discussion about him at Rivendell? He had concern ONLY for his little part of the world. Also - didn't they say that if Sauron won - eventually even TB's Old Forest would fall? Eru on the other hand, DOES concern himself with what happens to the entire world. We see it in all of Gandalf's statements about what was suposed to be or meant to be. Nor do I think he was a Vala - they were all out west - and didn't come back to ME. I think, if he must be fit into the order of ME beings, he was a Maia. Perhaps he had devoted himself to the creation of that little corner of ME and invested himself so heavily in it - that he couldn't bear to leave it - and retained power over it and in it. It doesn't matter that he has different "powers" or "gifts" than other Maia we know of (ie - not made invisible by the ring, able to see Frodo, not otherwise affected by ring) - they were a diverse group when physically manifest on Middle Earth. Think how widely each of the following vary in what they can do and how they do it: Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Rhadagast, Melian, Balrogs - all Maiar! Goldberry too! And her daddy was probably also Maia, under Ulmo - in charge of a river.

10-14-2003, 06:30 PM	#17
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	Well as Mr Bean put it: "Magic" But to elaborate a bit Tom is. He is his own element of the story, and he should be tackled individually. Since he's more or less there for JRR Tolkien's own amusement, I feel justified in treating him differently, if you get me. I don't believe that there are any right or wrong theories concerning Tom, so I don't bother to wonder much. All I know for sure is that he is inexplicably strange. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

10-20-2003, 11:06 PM	#18
Ainaromenel Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 15	I think Tolkien put Tom into the story just to add depth to the story of the Hobbits leaving the Shire. It is their own adventure, just between the four of them. Maybe it was too convintient that he only looks after his section of Middle Earth. I definately don't think he was Eru or a Valar, though the idea of him being a Maia explains a few things. If he was a Maia, maybe he could have been following the Hobbits in his spirit form, and then put the body form back on. I would say that there is no where that I know of that indicates that the Maia can teleport. Tolkien didn't stoop to that. Whatever the case, as lovable as Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are, outside of hardening the Hobbits and giving them more depth, I don't think they played any major role in Middle Earth. There's no mention of either in The Silmarillion, and I have yet to hear of any mention in the Letters and HofME. __________________ Ainaromel: "Holy" + ""Sunrise" + "Star" "Holy Morning Star" Jesus Christ my Savior

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Uruk-hai, or the journey there...	Olmer	Writer's Workshop	43	06-01-2016 08:55 PM
Demaethor and Amariel	Rosie Gamgee	Writer's Workshop	14	11-13-2007 09:05 PM