a (first-up) question

[smaug_the_magnificent]

Hey All...

"I am thirsty" (Frodo)

Well, what do we all think? The religious connotations are palpable, which may or may not convince PJ to avoid such overt references & therefore leave it out..

I think it's a great quote from the book and I hope it finds its way into the film; I mean sure, it's very short & succinct and many might think whether or not it'll be included ultimately inconsequential.. But I feel (regardless of any pious overtones) it's a line of great profundity and in the books at least, sets the mood perfectly.. So, what are the chances that Pete will include Frodo saying these words as they appear in the text??

[azalea]

Welcome to Entmoot!
I haven't read any commentary on the religious connotations associated w/ that particular line, so I can't make an intelligent comment on that myself (aside from mentioning that Tolkien said that he "detested" allegory, so he might have disagreed if you meant he was trying to put a "hidden message" of some kind in there -- you might want to tell more about what you mean by this for the benefit of others like me ), but judging from the previous two movies, I would say it's fifty-fifty (my guess would be no, or if he does include it, it will be incidental).

[smaug_the_magnificent]

Thanks azalea!

At the crucifixion, when nailed to the cross, Christ says "I am thirsty" ...This occurs at the penultimate moment before His death, and these words are uttered to fulfil the scripture..

I am acutely aware (as any Tolkien aficionados would be) of his disdain for allegory, however an author cannot be wholly unaffected by their beliefs or empirical experiences (which he freely conceded also)

Yes, this line is an anomaly in the context of the rest of the novel and when taking note of what Tolkien himself has declared on this matter.. There are messages and metaphors littered throughout the Lord of the Rings but most are implicit and just beneath the surface.. This one appears not to be so - but his vehement conviction for Catholicism is so strong I can understand how he may have made an exception at this highly poignant moment

I could be wrong, but the similarities are too great to discount it - it's a point in the book when Frodo decides to say nothing more, lest his Quest is achieved.. However he utters one final line which, without much thought as to its relevance or meaning, seems to fit just perfectly.. I hope PJ can recreate that mood somehow

[Durin1]

Some good thoughts Smaug! I have to be honest and admit they had not really occurred to me before.

I don't really think that Tolkien would have tried to make any great references to his Catholic religion, whether intentionally or unintentionally, but admit that they have played a part in some of his writings. However, it is important to point out that Tolkien himself did not want too much significance to be attached to his Catholism as influencing his thought processes. In fact, if you read his works is stuff in there which would have been anathema to the Catholic mode of thinking.

In terms of Frodo and his "I am thirsty", going by PJ's treatment of a lot of the canonical stuff in his movies, it probably will NOT be put in!

P.S

One of my first reasons for getting into Tolkien as a child (starting with The Hobbit) was its distinct lack of religious "allegory" or preaching - which was what started to put me off CS Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia.

[smaug_the_magnificent]

''The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision... the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.'' J.R.R. Tolkien letters

I think such a quote does incontrovertibly dispel your theory that "Tolkien himself did not want too much significance to be attached to his Catholicism as influencing his thought processes."

It clearly pervaded his thought process - but despite this, he was able to avoid literal translations of that belief into his work (in another words, allegory) - and that, has to be lauded...

However it doesn't properly explain the Frodo quote because these influences are weaved subtly throughout the story and (as you rightly point out) there's no explicit mention of Religion in the mythology of Middle-Earth whatsoever.. I guess we can put it down to Tolkien's genius, a work bereft of uncouth author autonomy that enables the story to be enjoyed and interpreted at all levels.. If you're not all that privy to Christianity and its teachings, the Lord of the Rings will not be seen as a "fundamentally Catholic" work, which in turn facilitates such readers to still appreciate the fundamental human themes running through the book that are pertinent for everyone, atheist, agnostic, religious... Was this a motivation of commercial reality - to widen his audience? A cynic might think so.. But I reckon rather it was a chance for him to display his heightened ability to use imaginative symbolism through his romantic prose to meander a theme into the work while at the same time looking to entertain.. But whether or not a reader got what he was hinting at, didn't really matter to him (in my opinion).. "The splintered light"

Yes I agree, thankfulluy the Lord of the Rings is not an authoritative text on any particular dogma and tries instead to extract personal reader interpretation (which is the essential reason why it is a timeless piece of literature and why the movies will prove equally resilient).. For that reason too, the book has enamoured itself to me.. I am a Roman Catholic but I am not a particularly scholastic student of its teachings.. I respect it (and perhaps as I get closer to dotage I may begin to listen to God more than I have hitherto) but in the main, I'm not drawn to works that try to "preach" a certain belief, especially when the method is forceful in any way or that tries to belittle all other alternatives..

Despite the obvious need for the movies to remain (or establish) a secular feel about them, I sometimes feel certain underlying threads of Biblical nuances in Peter Jackson's films.. I think that would be a great discussion point.. Have people seen any hints of such references in the first two instalments? Would that be something that Peter, Phillipa and Fran would have considered (even at a very minor level) ? I think (and I'll list some possible examples later) there is anecdotal evidence to suggest there might be some overtones in this regard.. However, one cannot discount the possibility that any such inferences of symbolism in the movies could have been accidental, either..

[Durin1]

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
''The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision... the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.'' J.R.R. Tolkien letters

I think such a quote does incontrovertibly dispel your theory that "Tolkien himself did not want too much significance to be attached to his Catholicism as influencing his thought processes."

It clearly pervaded his thought process - but despite this, he was able to avoid literal translations of that belief into his work (in another words, allegory) - and that, has to be lauded...

I have to admit that when I had made that statement it was through my subconcious interpretation of Tolkien's works. I had forgotten a great deal about this aspect of the mythology and, as a result, did not attempt to research the matter and back it up with any empirical evidence. I will have to admit defeat on that point!

I would be interested to learn what references you have for the "biblical nuances" form the two films. I will have to watch the films again to be able to elaborate any further regarding these subtle references to such points.

In terms of whether the screenplay writers would have considered this aspect, I doubt it. From what I can gather from other sources, PJ seems to have consulted a lot with Tom Shippey, and his theories clearly pervade across the two movies (the description of the Rohirrim for example). Shippey also seems adamant that there is an allegorical aspect to LoTR (which makes me doubt whether he should be deemed to be such a great influence and arbiter). PJ himself apparently has not denied any allegory linked with the books and the movies (whatever he may say to the contrary). So in essence, I believe that the religious connotation would seem likely to be a result of "accident" or natural consequence of bringing the books to life. Any symbolism would be the result of the audience's own interpretation in this regard.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
Despite the obvious need for the movies to remain (or establish) a secular feel about them, I sometimes feel certain underlying threads of Biblical nuances in Peter Jackson's films.. I think that would be a great discussion point.. Have people seen any hints of such references in the first two instalments?

To the screenwriters' credit, they stayed true to Tolkien and didn't allow Hollywood's anti-religious biases to possess these films.

The most overt religious message (coming directly from Tolkien, I might add) was Gandalf's comments to Frodo in Moria:

"There are other forces in this world besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the ring in which case you also were meant to have it...and that is an encouraging thought.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by smaug_the_magnificent
...
"I am thirsty" (Frodo) ....

Me too... *goes to the kitchen and get's a drink of water*