Exploring: Foresight

[Artanis]

Some thoughts about foresight:

The Ainur, many of the Elves, the Drúedain, and some Men of noble inheritance are gifted with foresight. This ability is easy to explain with the Ainur, they got their knowledge from the vision of the great music and words spoken by Iluvatar (published Sil):

And many other things Ilúvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them.

But the Ainur's knowledge is incomplete (published Sil):

Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

Now there are many (maybe all?) Elves and a few Men that have this ability. There seem to be only Men with partly Elvish inheritance that are foresighted. How do we explain their foresight? It is tempting to believe that also their glimpses into the future come from Iluvatar, that it is one of the ways of Iluvatar to affect the course of the events in the world. Faramir's dream is a well-known example. Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel were the most foresighted of the Elves in ME in the third age, and they were also among the chief enemies of Sauron.

An interesting thing about foresight is that it may reveal the consequences of a choice, like when Gandalf advices Thórin to take Bilbo on the quest to Erebor (UT):

'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield !' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, aid I am warning you.'

And when Gilraen's parents are discussing whether or not their daughter should marry Arathorn (LotR, Appendix A):

'Arador was the grandfather of the King. His son Arathorn sought in marriage Gilraen the Fair, daughter of DÃ*rhael, who was himself a descendant of Aranarth. To this marriage DÃ*rhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dúnedain were accustomed to marry.
' "Moreover," he said, "Arathorn is a stern man of full age, and will be chieftain sooner than men looked for; yet my heart forebodes mat he will be shortlived."
'But Ivorwen, his wife, who was also foresighted, answered: "The more need of haste! The days are darkening before the storm, and great things are to come. If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people; but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts."

The main outlines of history seems to be pre-destined, but in a small scale the choises of each individual make a significant difference.

At last, is foresight really a gift, as a thing to envy? In the Athrabeth, Finrod says to Andreth (HoME 10): "Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, ....", and I would think his foresight about his own fate and the future of his realm were not easy to bear.

Comments, anyone?

[Rían]

Just a quick addition - Huor talking to Turgon right before he dies -

from the Sil
This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!

A pretty specific foresight. I think Tolkien said somewhere that before death, the foresights were stronger, or something like that, but I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just thinking about Finrod's comment in the Athrabeth.

There was also something about foresight in mother-names in MR, IIRC.

[Silpion]

I agree that foresight involves making choices and the consequences of those choices. It’s like advice that the person should pay attention to.

Before his death, Gwindor tells Turin:

from the Silmarillion
Haste thee to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to thee: she alone stands between thee and thy doom. If thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee.

Turin does not immediately go after Finduilas and she dies. Turin then ends up marrying and impregnating his own sister. She leaps off of Cabed-en-Aras (where she presumably dies because her body is never found) and Turin falls (impales himself) on his sword Gurthang.

When foresight comes upon (in this case) Finrod Felagund, it concerns his own fate.

from the Silmarillion
'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'

Barahir saves Finrod’s life whereby Finrod swears to aid Barahir or his kin. Although Finrod knows that he probably goes to his doom, he still chooses to honor his oath to aid Beren (son of Barahir) in his quest for a Silmaril even though his decision does lead to his death. Beren stays alive until Luthien comes to rescue him, they succeed in their quest to obtain a Silmaril. From Beren and Luthien comes Dior, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, etc.

Foresight seems to be a gift in the long run, but not necessarily something to be envied by the people it affects.

[Elemmírë]

*bump*

Originally Posted by Silpion

I agree that foresight involves making choices and the consequences of those choices. It’s like advice that the person should pay attention to.

I have one problem with this statement.

While I cannot be positive about other events, in none of the instances listed above has foresight failed. This leads me to wonder whether rather than simple advice, it is something set in stone. While the manner in which the "prophecy," for lack of a better term, is fulfilled is often unpredictable, I still maintain that these prophecies always seem true.

I think this occurrence was left out earlier:

Glorfindel, LotR Appendix A (concerning the Witch-king)

Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.

For me, however, this conclusion that foresight seems to be written in stone leads to a dilemma (and thus the primary reason I dug up this old thread).

Where does free-will fit into this equation? If one is assuming that foresight cannot be defeated, where is free-will. According to the quoted text above, the birth of Earendil was already prophesied at the Nirnaeth. Theoretically, the story of Tuor and Idril and the Voyage of Earendil could have played out differently, yet it did not.

As Glorfindel foresaw, it was not by the hand of a man that the Witch-king fell.

And so forth with the other stories.

I have my own opinions and theories on the matter, but I'll wait until later to post again (it's almost 3 in the morning now, and I'm going to bed ).

Does anyone else have any ideas?

[Valandil]

LM - in the cases cited, I don't think it's so much 'set in stone' as it could be considered 'accurate foresight'... the first gives power to the speaker to actually set the conditions of what will come - the second only speaks to accurate 'vision' of it.

Some, but not all, Christians view God this way - that He did not pre-determine every outcome of every event, but that He KNOWS how each event will come out, even the tiniest ones (while He did intervene directly in the larger ones).

Anyway - I didn't want to sidetrack the thread, but I think the comparison is apt.

It's possible that there were inaccurate 'prophecies' as well... but they would only detract from the story, and there's no need to get into them. Tolkien had a convenient vehicle to provide some foreshadowing - and made use of it.

There's even at least one 'conditional' prophecy: that of Malbeth the Seer regarding Arvedui (see Appendix A )... sort of like, "If Choice 1 is made, then A will happen... but if Choice 2 is made, then B will happen"

[Elemmírë]

Foreshadowing. I agree, it all comes down to plot advancement in the end.

Now it's my turn to drag this Off Topic... When thinking about foresight, I often remember Greek mythology, and the prophecies involved, that always were fulfilled in the end, usually because of the characters' desire to avoid their Fate.

Maybe foresight is something like that, though in reverse.

My new little theory goes like this:

Rather than foretelling a future set in stone, in a way, in part the prophecies might have caused them. Because these prophecies existed, characters perhaps believed that history would play out like that, and acted according to this belief. After hearing Glorfindel say that no man would defeat the Witch-king, is it likely that any man would battle him and expect to be able to win.

Many years before Beren came to Nargothrond, Finrod knew that he was going to die because of an oath. Therefore he did not go on the quest with any expectations of survival.

I'm going to dig up a quote to state my thoughts on this succinctly:
"A mind troubled by doubt cannot focus on the course to victory." ~Arthur Golden

For me, this could explain why foresight is often successful, though not why events play out in a way for this to be possible, except that the future is somewhat "set in stone."

*sigh* Why must it always turn to psychology for me?

Originally Posted by Valandil

LM - in the cases cited, I don't think it's so much 'set in stone' as it could be considered 'accurate foresight'... the first gives power to the speaker to actually set the conditions of what will come - the second only speaks to accurate 'vision' of it.

Some, but not all, Christians view God this way - that He did not pre-determine every outcome of every event, but that He KNOWS how each event will come out, even the tiniest ones (while He did intervene directly in the larger ones).

I'm sorry, could you explain this? I don't think I understand. Perhaps "set in stone" is not the right term to use, but if Eru/God always KNOWS what is going to happen before it happens, then this seems that the future is already decided. If no events can be changed, does this mean that free will exists or not?

Originally Posted by Valandil

There's even at least one 'conditional' prophecy: that of Malbeth the Seer regarding Arvedui (see Appendix A )... sort of like, "If Choice 1 is made, then A will happen... but if Choice 2 is made, then B will happen"

Arvedui. Why am I not surprised.

This is the case with Turin also, as stated earlier, concerning Gwindor's "prophecy," if one can call it that.

It seems in this case that, as you said, events are not exactly set in stone, yet there is still little room for chance or flexibility. Does this make sense?

[Embladyne]

Hmmm....I was just remembering that one of the methods of determining what the future holds is rather similar to a wiccan practice of meditation.
ex: Galadriel stares into the bowl of water...
You stare into the water, watching as the surface is constantly in motion, and seeing the patterns morph and recur always different, but somehow always so similar. And, these patterns, if you focus, I guess are able to inform you of future events, and the passing of time in the world around you.
I just found this really interesting.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

:
:
I'm sorry, could you explain this? I don't think I understand. Perhaps "set in stone" is not the right term to use, but if Eru/God always KNOWS what is going to happen before it happens, then this seems that the future is already decided. If no events can be changed, does this mean that free will exists or not?
:
:
:
It seems in this case that, as you said, events are not exactly set in stone, yet there is still little room for chance or flexibility. Does this make sense?

I'll try. An explanation about God (EDIT: in this regard) that I understood the best was a different understanding of how God views the passage of time. We see one moment of time at once, obviously... we're limited in this way. Someone once suggested that God sees time THIS way: then put his hands about four feet apart, the one hand signifying the beginning of time, the other hand signifying the end, with God freely viewing (and because of His infinite qualities, fully comprehending) the entire scope of all time at once.

If this is a correct assessment of how God may view time, it's easier to understand the concept of 'foreknowledge' (knew what was going to happen) without that of 'foreordination' (determined what was going to happen). And, if this is how it is with God, it's possible to imagine God giving just a glimpse of that expanse of time to someone in order that they can tell others about it (as the view of prophecy is that it is a gift from God).

I think prophecy in Middle Earth can be viewed similarly.

As to Malbeth's prophecy - it could have been simply more limited - not knowing exactly WHAT was going to happen, but knowing some. Even Glorfindel didn't know (or at least didn't tell) EVERYTHING... he knew somehow, that no MAN would defeat the Witch-King, but he did not say it would be a team effort by a woman and a halfling (got the W-K on a technicality, eh? ). Even prophecies, as they are known in the Judeo-Christian tradition, are not full, complete foretellings of exactly how things will play out in the future... they are glimpses.

There could be something to say for the 'self-fulfilling prophecies' - but as you say, many of those are literary devices as well, such as in the Greek Myths.

As for what is 'set in stone' and what is left to such things as chance, flexibility, what I would call 'free will' - I think the best way is to heed the prophecies you would consider to be true, but then operate as you think you should, making the best decisions you can make. That to me is the duty of the Christian today... and was the duty (and M.O.) of Tolkien's heroes of Middle Earth.

[Attalus]

I would add that Scandinavian and Icelandic mythologies are full of prophecies that are not self-fulfilling, but stating what the consequnces of actions would be. If you do so-and-so, thus and so will happen, but not if any other thing is done will it happen. God sees all that happens, because He is outside Time, so all is clear to Him. That does not mean that He is not deeply grieved by some things that happen, and that He can aid through prayer; though obviously sometimes He does not.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

this is a really interesting topic

[Embladyne]

I had forgotten about this thread.
I've thought a lot about this topic...And am still thinking about it.
What intrigues me most is the different ways people deal with being told of their future. While some try so hard to escape it, and end up making it that much worse, others kinda work with what they've got, and still try to do the best they can even though they aren't happy with their fate. Actually, I was talking to EL on the phone about this last night.
I was comparing the fates of Turin and Tuor...and their personalities.