Elves that become mortal

Thingol's new Wife · 06-25-2003, 12:38 PM

Do elves that become mortal really become mortal? I think that they would become ill and die just like mortals. Does anyone know?
And if they didn't why?

Arien the Maia · 06-25-2003, 12:54 PM

Perhaps in chosing to become mortal, an elf is given the Gift of Men in its original form, that is the elf can chose when she is weary of the world to depart...just like men were supposed to be able to do and like Aragorn did. This is just my opinion, I could be WAY off

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-25-2003, 01:24 PM

Moving to the Middle-earth forum.

Lefty Scaevola · 06-25-2003, 07:10 PM

We know of no full-blood elf that was given the choice, Even the first Luthian was half Elf and Half Maia.

ArwenEvenstar · 06-25-2003, 09:06 PM

Wasn't it only the descendants of Earendil given the choice to become mortal? I also have a question, would Arwen and Aragorn's child(ern) have the choice to become immortal or mortal, aren't they also distantly related?

Lefty Scaevola · 06-25-2003, 10:43 PM

No child of two mortals (including a parent he had been mixed but elected mortality), got a choice to be Elvish (except for maybe Tour, but the legned of his being made Elvish is dubious, likely a fanciful invention of a later age), Thus none of Elros's children got a choice, nor would it seem that Arwen's did.

Anglorfin · 06-26-2003, 04:22 AM

Out of all Immortals that indeed became Mortal, their deaths were usually for "Elvish" reasons anyway. Which is why I think it's so hard to be sure of what the newly mortalized Elves are really subject to. Of course, an Elf could "give up their life" too, just as was gifted to the race of Men. The difference is that Mens' souls will leave the circles of the world, while an Elven soul will be reembodied over time. That is Tolkien's true dividing line of being mortal and immortal I think. (I hope this is making sense) So an Elf becoming Mortal would mean that after death they would be freed from the spiritual bonds of Arda. As to any textual reference to back this up I cannot help there.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-26-2003, 06:32 PM

TNW and I discussed this before she posted, and what she really is asking is: if an Elf becomes mortal, do they also become human. Are they biologically changed in anyway, making them subject to sickness and disease, age and death? My answer to this was, they are still Elves, but they are now subject to death and no longer bound to the world. TNW does not agree with me, but this is how I see it.

Dolenloteiel · 06-26-2003, 08:15 PM

The only elves that chose to become mortal, were Luthien and Arwen. After Aragorn's death, Arwen left Middle Earth and went to Valinor. (I think) Luthien however had a second mortal life granted to her in the Halls of Mandos, and she was released with Beren the One Handed from Arda as a mortal. Elros and Elrond were given a choice to stay either in Numenor and/or Valinor or to go to Middle Earth. Elros stayed in Numenor and became the first King while Elrond went to Middle Earth and founded Rivendell becoming it's first and only Lord. As for the original question, Luthien and Arwen were not subjected to mortal diseases or deaths, they remained elflike until Luthien's death and Arwen's journey into the west. ((Gotta love Silmarillion, and Guide to Tolkien!!

))

cassiopeia · 06-26-2003, 08:18 PM

After Aragon died, Arwen went to Lorien and died on Cerin Amorth.

Lefty Scaevola · 06-27-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
TNW and I discussed this before she posted, and what she really is asking is: if an Elf becomes mortal, do they also become human. Are they biologically changed in anyway, making them subject to sickness and disease, age and death?

The cahnge is in the spirit, which tnen adpats the body to the spirit's nature. Genetticly, Elves and Humans are the same species, the difference is in their soul/spirit.

Thingol's new Wife · 06-27-2003, 10:20 AM

So, none of the elves that became mortal aged? Arwen stayed beautiful, and young, while Aragorn got old?

Lefty Scaevola · 06-27-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thingol's new Wife
So, none of the elves that became mortal aged? Arwen stayed beautiful, and young, while Aragorn got old?

Likely they followed the pattern of the the descendants of Elros, with few syptems of agedness appearing until the last decade or so of the lifespan, and that they layed down their reiming body life when such syptems first appeared.

Thingol's new Wife · 06-27-2003, 10:47 AM

SGH, and I argued about this for over an hour. I figured if I started a thread, I would get more opinions on the matter. So they aged a little? Could they get sick? Did mortals get sick? Were there diseases? Would an elf that became mortal be subjact to them?

Dolenloteiel · 06-27-2003, 01:38 PM

Thank you, I keep forgetting the end of Arwen's story.

No, the "mortal" elves were not subject to diseases. They just chose a "mortal" life. As elves aged they became more beautiful, and "shone" with a sort of inner light of wisdom.

Falagar · 06-27-2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

The only elves that chose to become mortal, were Luthien and Arwen.

No Elves became mortal. Both Lúthien and Arwen were half-elven, though it may be argued that Lúthien wasn't half mortal and thus would be counted among the Eldar. She was granted the choice because she was pretty and good at singing

I'll have to leave again tomorrow (for those of you that even knew I have been gone), so won't be posting again for another week.

Sheeana · 06-27-2003, 04:07 PM

Yes, that is an important distinction: they became mortal not human. I do not believe that they aged, or that they were subject to disease.

Artanis · 06-27-2003, 04:14 PM

I agree with you BoP. Becoming mrotal meant they would share the fate of Men after death. I think they would be like Men in that they would become weary of the world in a few years time, and then they could choose to die, as Arwen did.

Anglorfin · 06-27-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
TNW and I discussed this before she posted, and what she really is asking is: if an Elf becomes mortal, do they also become human. Are they biologically changed in anyway, making them subject to sickness and disease, age and death? My answer to this was, they are still Elves, but they are now subject to death and no longer bound to the world. TNW does not agree with me, but this is how I see it.

In case anyone wasn't sure, that is what I was trying to say in my last post. "Mortal" Elves would still have their immunities to sickness and all that, the only difference is the release of their souls.

Thingol's new Wife · 06-27-2003, 11:50 PM

Then they weren't truley mortal.?

06-25-2003, 12:38 PM	#1
Thingol's new Wife Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ohio Posts: 28	Elves that become mortal Do elves that become mortal really become mortal? I think that they would become ill and die just like mortals. Does anyone know? And if they didn't why?

06-25-2003, 01:24 PM	#3
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Moving to the Middle-earth forum. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

06-25-2003, 09:06 PM	#5
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	Wasn't it only the descendants of Earendil given the choice to become mortal? I also have a question, would Arwen and Aragorn's child(ern) have the choice to become immortal or mortal, aren't they also distantly related? __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

06-25-2003, 10:43 PM	#6
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	No child of two mortals (including a parent he had been mixed but elected mortality), got a choice to be Elvish (except for maybe Tour, but the legned of his being made Elvish is dubious, likely a fanciful invention of a later age), Thus none of Elros's children got a choice, nor would it seem that Arwen's did. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

06-26-2003, 04:22 AM	#7
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	Out of all Immortals that indeed became Mortal, their deaths were usually for "Elvish" reasons anyway. Which is why I think it's so hard to be sure of what the newly mortalized Elves are really subject to. Of course, an Elf could "give up their life" too, just as was gifted to the race of Men. The difference is that Mens' souls will leave the circles of the world, while an Elven soul will be reembodied over time. That is Tolkien's true dividing line of being mortal and immortal I think. (I hope this is making sense) So an Elf becoming Mortal would mean that after death they would be freed from the spiritual bonds of Arda. As to any textual reference to back this up I cannot help there. __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

06-25-2003, 12:54 PM	#2
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	Perhaps in chosing to become mortal, an elf is given the Gift of Men in its original form, that is the elf can chose when she is weary of the world to depart...just like men were supposed to be able to do and like Aragorn did. This is just my opinion, I could be WAY off

06-25-2003, 07:10 PM	#4
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	We know of no full-blood elf that was given the choice, Even the first Luthian was half Elf and Half Maia.

06-26-2003, 06:32 PM	#8
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	TNW and I discussed this before she posted, and what she really is asking is: if an Elf becomes mortal, do they also become human. Are they biologically changed in anyway, making them subject to sickness and disease, age and death? My answer to this was, they are still Elves, but they are now subject to death and no longer bound to the world. TNW does not agree with me, but this is how I see it. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

06-26-2003, 08:15 PM	#9
Dolenloteiel I elenfea Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO) Posts: 556	The only elves that chose to become mortal, were Luthien and Arwen. After Aragorn's death, Arwen left Middle Earth and went to Valinor. (I think) Luthien however had a second mortal life granted to her in the Halls of Mandos, and she was released with Beren the One Handed from Arda as a mortal. Elros and Elrond were given a choice to stay either in Numenor and/or Valinor or to go to Middle Earth. Elros stayed in Numenor and became the first King while Elrond went to Middle Earth and founded Rivendell becoming it's first and only Lord. As for the original question, Luthien and Arwen were not subjected to mortal diseases or deaths, they remained elflike until Luthien's death and Arwen's journey into the west. ((Gotta love Silmarillion, and Guide to Tolkien!! )) __________________ "Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan **************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com **************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again!

06-26-2003, 08:18 PM	#10
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	After Aragon died, Arwen went to Lorien and died on Cerin Amorth. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

06-27-2003, 10:20 AM	#12
Thingol's new Wife Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ohio Posts: 28	So, none of the elves that became mortal aged? Arwen stayed beautiful, and young, while Aragorn got old?

06-27-2003, 10:47 AM	#14
Thingol's new Wife Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ohio Posts: 28	SGH, and I argued about this for over an hour. I figured if I started a thread, I would get more opinions on the matter. So they aged a little? Could they get sick? Did mortals get sick? Were there diseases? Would an elf that became mortal be subjact to them?

06-27-2003, 01:38 PM	#15
Dolenloteiel I elenfea Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO) Posts: 556	Thank you, I keep forgetting the end of Arwen's story. No, the "mortal" elves were not subject to diseases. They just chose a "mortal" life. As elves aged they became more beautiful, and "shone" with a sort of inner light of wisdom. __________________ "Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan **************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com **************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again!

06-27-2003, 04:07 PM	#17
Sheeana Lord of the Pants Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,382	Yes, that is an important distinction: they became mortal not human. I do not believe that they aged, or that they were subject to disease.

06-27-2003, 04:14 PM	#18
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I agree with you BoP. Becoming mrotal meant they would share the fate of Men after death. I think they would be like Men in that they would become weary of the world in a few years time, and then they could choose to die, as Arwen did. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

06-27-2003, 11:50 PM	#20
Thingol's new Wife Hobbit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ohio Posts: 28	Then they weren't truley mortal.?

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