The Samwise-Gollum Connection

[Starr Polish]

In an attempt to bring another interesting conversation to the book forum (and have an excuse for a much needed break from studying for my final exams), I tentatively start a thread.

While studying, I've been listening to the BBC radio adaptation of LOTR, and something was brought to my attention. I've noticed it before while reading the books, but always forgot to bring it up.

Sam seems to have some of Gollum's charateristics. Now, wait...mainly talking to himself. It's most obvious in The Choices of Master Samwise and Mount Doom, when he sits and argues with himself about going on, and tells himself to "stop that" and such. I'll post examples and more discussion later, must get back to studying.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmm. Quite interesting. Look forward to hearing more.

[azalea]

I tried to formulate a post about this, but it was too dumb, so I'll wait till I have more time to respond. Anyway, part of it was talking about how I think the talking aloud to themselves was partly a device to avoid a complete shift in voice/POV. Anyway, I too look forward to discussing this subject further later on(no time! no time!) .

[Coney]

Now, wait...mainly talking to himself. It's most obvious in The Choices of Master Samwise and Mount Doom, when he sits and argues with himself about going on, and tells himself to "stop that" and such. I'll post examples and more discussion later, must get back to studying.

Very interesting ......

Talking to one's self has often been believed to be a sign of insecurity...........and I suppose, to one degree or another, both Gollum and Sam did suffer from a lot of insecurity and self doubt. Sam being in a somewhat alien situation and Gollum, despite his best efforts, being in a situation that he wished to take control of but couldn't.

[Sheeana]

Hmmm, I wonder then if Sam was not so much expressing his distrust of Smeagol in Ithilien, as expressing his insecurity then? Perhaps, deep down, he thought that Smeagol might steal Frodo away from him? ... I know, it'a a bit of a leap! But I've always kinda thought that he could have been redeemed if he'd been given more of a chance by Sam.

[Baby-K]

Starr - are you questioning whether or not Sam realised that he had very similar qualities to Gollum & that is why he disliked Gollum so much?

Interesting thread, perhaps the similarities were introduced to indicate that Sam could not have been the ringbearer (though he wanted to relieve Frodo from that burden) as he would have been similarly affected by it as Gollum. Maybe Sam did recognise himself in Gollum & that is why he so intensely disliked him & did not give him the opportunity to redeem himself - not only because he was afraid / jealous of the bond between Frodo & Gollum, but also because he saw the worst he could ever be in a physical form, as a daily reminder of what he could become.

[durin's bane]

I don't think it's a real connection. A lot of people talk to themselves when they feel worried, or insecure, etc. I know I do sometimes, like when I had this stupid argument with my friend, I'll sit down and say stuff like, "What am I going to do?" or "Why was I such an idiot?"
For the particular chapter, 'The Choices of Master Samwise", Sam had just witnessed Frodo being captured by Orcs, and he assumed Frodo was dead. He talked to himself because of fear, worry, depression, or a mixture of the three, or maybe another feeling. However, I forget a lot of the book's dialogue, so I'll have to try and see if I can find any other parts of Sam talking to himself to see if my theory is really true.

[Ruinel]

Sheeana, I got the same feeling when I read the book. That Sam was possessive of Frodo's friendship and was afraid Smeagol would turn Frodo away from Sam's trust. Interesting!

Also, the minute Sam puts The Ring on his finger, The Ring tempts him with visions. That is most likely because of the proximity of The Ring to it's place of origin. But it must also be attributed to Sam's weaknesses and insecurities.

[Lanelf]

Hmm, yes, I see the point. But still, I know a lot of people who talk to themselves. I do. I think Sam must not have realised he was talking to himself like Gollum did, though. I mean, he hated Gollum.
Did I just get promoted to Queen Obvious? Oops...
Lanelf.

[LutraMage]

I think the talking to himself thing is just the tip of the iceburg. It seems to me that Tolkien uses Sam and Gollum almost as a simile for the good and bad in all of us. Gandalf tells how Gollum is a distant relative of the hobbits, so, in essence, Sam and Gollum are opposite sides of the same coin. Sam is generally good, but becomes uncharacteristically mean to Gollum who he doesn't trust. Gollum is generally bad, but his connection with Frodo (and Sam) brings out the good in him. I think Tolkien is telling us that there is good and bad in each of us and sometimes it is our circumstances that brings out the worst - and the best - in us.

And that is why Gandalf is keen to get across the message that Gollum should be pitied, not loathed - and Frodo comes to see that in the end "Now that I see him, I do pity him."

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Very interesting, LutraMage, sounds quite likely. Tolkien once said that he didn't deal with "absolute" or "pure" evil, I don't remember which adjective he used. I doubt he dealt with pure good, either, except for most likely Eru, and maybe Manwe.

And in the end, even Samwise pitied Gollum, as he grovelled before him in the dust, and could not kill him.

[Rosie Gamgee]

Why won't this thing let me post????

Sorry, I just came up with a brilliant reply to this topic, and I am miffed that I can't get it posted. I might try again if this works.

Sorry again

[Rosie Gamgee]

Sorry to double post. I am going to try this one more time.

I think that a lot of Sam's 'talking to himself' is really an interpretation of the battle of wills going on in his brain. If Tolkien had just said "Sam struggled over this matter for a while, and then finally made up his mind.", we would have been drawn into his debate as much. Since Tolkien gave a voice to each will, it kind of helps us to get inside Sam's head, if you know what I mean.
Also, I think Sam (and all hobbits- with the possible exception of Mr. Frodo and Old Mr. Bilbo) is a very people/relationship oriented person. Hobbits like to talk about their problems so they can solve them and draw encouragement from each other. Notice Sam never held conversation's with himself when Merry and Pip were around? If he wanted to talk to someone, the only people available were Frodo (who didn't need to be bothered with Sam's problems on top of his own) and Gollum (whom Sam disliked). So he had to talk to himself if he wanted to vocalize his thoughts (which sometimes helps when one has a problem- I know, I talk to myself )
About Frodo and Sam's relationship to Gollum, I like what they did in TTT, the movie, about bringing Frodo's connection to Gollum out. I know I'm not supposed to talk about the movies in this forum, but I have a good point to make. Frodo is nice to Gollum because he needs to know that a Ringbearer can recover from the effects of the Ring. It's kind of his test case: If Gollum can come back, so can he. The thing is, Sam doesn't see this. All he sees is a vile, evil creature who has to hope of recovery. He sees a lair, a thief, and a killer, and it never entered his brain that that's what Frodo would become if he had the Ring too long (in which case Sam would have held out all hope that Frodo could come back to the right). So this creates a rift between the two hobbits, that Frodo is kind to Gollum and Sam isn't. So I guess Sam could be jealous of Gollum in that respect.

Okay, I'm done for now.

[Lanelf]

Yes, I tend to talk to myself too. I was always so annoyed when I was little and my sister would sit in her room (next to mine) and chatter to herself all night. At least I keep it quiet.
Lanelf.

[Lollypopgurl]

Sam could have been talking to himself in Cirth Ungol just to get rid of the silence. I would always start humming or something when it get too quiet.