Elvish when spoken....

Dúnedain · 02-01-2003, 02:35 PM

I've been meaning to comment on this for a while now, but I kept forgetting so here goes

After watching the extended version of FotR, the scenes that were added back in during Lothlorien, I really noticed something about the Elvish language when it is spoken. It sounds so close to the spoken form of Latin. Has anyone else noticed that? If not, go back to the part where Galadriel and Aragorn are talking to each other in Elvish just before they leave Lothlorien, I really noticed it there, the way Galadriel speaks the similarities really come out there, in my humble opinion

Besides, with Tolkien being a linguist expert, I am sure he based it off of the Latin derivatives anyway....

Falagar · 02-01-2003, 02:55 PM

Quenya was based on Latin, Finnish and Italian (I think)

Sindarin was based on (at least the sound) Celtic and Welsh.

Bronwyn of Gondor · 02-01-2003, 06:22 PM

It sounds a little like Latin (I'm not exactly well-versed, but I've heard it spoken before.

)... I don't know, at the time I was more or less trying to read the subtitles so I didn't feel like a complete idiot not knowing was was going on, but I guess I need to listen again.

Wayfarer · 02-01-2003, 07:53 PM

Yes, it sounds like latin. Which is annoying because I'm gtongue tied and can't roll my R's.

WallRocker · 02-01-2003, 07:54 PM

The Elvish language being Derived from Latin would make since. I believ it even talks about this in a way in the Silm. Something about Elvish becoming like Latin, onlly used in ceromonies and such*AAAGH - I'm posting about the books in the Movie forum**WallRocker slaps himself

***

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-01-2003, 08:08 PM

In the Letters of JRR Tolkien (Which is NOT a Lord of the Rings book!) Tolkien says that Quenya is like an "Elf-latin"; but I think he only means in the respect that it is used in ways similar to Latin.

Thrain · 02-01-2003, 09:13 PM

I take Latin at school and it is slightly like the language but not much. For one LAtin is a much harder and choppier speech where as elvish just kind of flows out of the mouth.

Dúnedain · 02-01-2003, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrain
I take Latin at school and it is slightly like the language but not much. For one LAtin is a much harder and choppier speech where as elvish just kind of flows out of the mouth.

Of course Latin is harder and choppier when you are learning it, however for those who are able to speak it fluently and hear it spoken from those who are fluent in it, the language is very graceful...

Huan · 02-02-2003, 01:47 AM

No, the elvish tongues aren't really intended to be based on Latin, and spoken Elvish (Sindarin) doesn't really sound like it. The tounges' strongest influence was Finnish. Gwaimir took the words from my mouth: Quenya is LIKE Latin in the sense that no one goes around speaking it; it's "book-Elvish." Or like Quran Arabic versus the zillions of modern Arabic dialects, though every Arab still learns Arabic as written in the Quran 1000-odd years ago. That's Quenya. Or like ancient Greek, which I can read, but I couldn't speak at all with a modern Greek, because the language sounds so different now.

Evenstar1400 · 02-03-2003, 06:38 PM

i bet JRRT didnt mean for it to sound like latin, but when it comes to making languages you can be influenced by the words and sounds from another language.

Huan · 02-04-2003, 01:49 AM

Oh yeah, all the languages Tolkien knew went into his creation of Elvish. He kind of did this fictional back-formation to invent the tongue that might have influenced the first human Indo-European speakers, so he invented words that could have conceivably evolved into their modern equivalents in real-world languages. Taking my own handle as an example, huan, the Elvish word for dog, combines all the variations of the Indo-European family Tolkien was most familar with. In it you have his theoretical basis from German and Old English "hund," (modern English "hound"), Latin "canus," and Greek "kuon." It is especially a synthesis of "hund" and "kuon." These did all develop from the same root, and Tolkien used his knowledge of sound changes to trace it back to what it might have sounded like when the elves first influenced us: they were the first with a spoken language after all.

Yapaluna · 02-05-2003, 05:55 PM

Huan´s analysis seems to me quite right.

Watching the FotR-video very often I remember only two words that Arwen uses when she makes the river wash away the ringwraiths. They are "Bruinen" and "Hithaeglir". She pronounces them the way I would have done it if I had to read them loud (in the book).

Her language seems to me being Sindarin and not Quenya. Am I right? All these "th" in it is not usual in Quenya.

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-05-2003, 06:23 PM

Yes, all of the Elvish spoken is Sindarin, I believe, as Quenya is really a form of "book-Elvish."

Sad to say, but I have memorised her River-calling spell.

Dúnedain · 02-07-2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Sad to say, but I have memorised her River-calling spell.

Sad indeed!

Elf Girl · 02-08-2003, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
Quenya was based on Latin, Finnish and Italian (I think)

No, you've got it backwards. Latin and Finnish were based on Quenya, and Italian was based on latin.

Huan · 02-09-2003, 02:03 AM

Thank you, Yapaluna.

02-01-2003, 02:35 PM	#1
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Elvish when spoken.... I've been meaning to comment on this for a while now, but I kept forgetting so here goes After watching the extended version of FotR, the scenes that were added back in during Lothlorien, I really noticed something about the Elvish language when it is spoken. It sounds so close to the spoken form of Latin. Has anyone else noticed that? If not, go back to the part where Galadriel and Aragorn are talking to each other in Elvish just before they leave Lothlorien, I really noticed it there, the way Galadriel speaks the similarities really come out there, in my humble opinion Besides, with Tolkien being a linguist expert, I am sure he based it off of the Latin derivatives anyway.... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

02-01-2003, 02:55 PM	#2
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Quenya was based on Latin, Finnish and Italian (I think) Sindarin was based on (at least the sound) Celtic and Welsh. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

02-01-2003, 06:22 PM	#3
Bronwyn of Gondor Sapling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Gondor Posts: 13	It sounds a little like Latin (I'm not exactly well-versed, but I've heard it spoken before. )... I don't know, at the time I was more or less trying to read the subtitles so I didn't feel like a complete idiot not knowing was was going on, but I guess I need to listen again. __________________ "I made a promise, Mr. Frodo. A promise. 'Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee!' And I don't mean to. I don't mean to." - Sam Gamgee

02-01-2003, 07:53 PM	#4
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes, it sounds like latin. Which is annoying because I'm gtongue tied and can't roll my R's. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-01-2003, 07:54 PM	#5
WallRocker Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: At the computer... Posts: 376	The Elvish language being Derived from Latin would make since. I believ it even talks about this in a way in the Silm. Something about Elvish becoming like Latin, onlly used in ceromonies and suchAAAGH - I'm posting about the books in the Movie forumWallRocker slaps himself** __________________ Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all

02-01-2003, 08:08 PM	#6
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	In the Letters of JRR Tolkien (Which is NOT a Lord of the Rings book!) Tolkien says that Quenya is like an "Elf-latin"; but I think he only means in the respect that it is used in ways similar to Latin. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-01-2003, 09:13 PM	#7
Thrain Enting Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Right now I am currently living in Rivendell Posts: 52	I take Latin at school and it is slightly like the language but not much. For one LAtin is a much harder and choppier speech where as elvish just kind of flows out of the mouth. __________________ Never mettle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good ketchup.

02-02-2003, 01:47 AM	#9
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	No, the elvish tongues aren't really intended to be based on Latin, and spoken Elvish (Sindarin) doesn't really sound like it. The tounges' strongest influence was Finnish. Gwaimir took the words from my mouth: Quenya is LIKE Latin in the sense that no one goes around speaking it; it's "book-Elvish." Or like Quran Arabic versus the zillions of modern Arabic dialects, though every Arab still learns Arabic as written in the Quran 1000-odd years ago. That's Quenya. Or like ancient Greek, which I can read, but I couldn't speak at all with a modern Greek, because the language sounds so different now.

02-03-2003, 06:38 PM	#10
Evenstar1400 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the inner depths of my lair. Posts: 421	i bet JRRT didnt mean for it to sound like latin, but when it comes to making languages you can be influenced by the words and sounds from another language. __________________ Treebeard: Hmm, you look like hobbits, smell like hobbits, feel like hobbits and sound like hobbits. You must be orcs!

02-04-2003, 01:49 AM	#11
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	Oh yeah, all the languages Tolkien knew went into his creation of Elvish. He kind of did this fictional back-formation to invent the tongue that might have influenced the first human Indo-European speakers, so he invented words that could have conceivably evolved into their modern equivalents in real-world languages. Taking my own handle as an example, huan, the Elvish word for dog, combines all the variations of the Indo-European family Tolkien was most familar with. In it you have his theoretical basis from German and Old English "hund," (modern English "hound"), Latin "canus," and Greek "kuon." It is especially a synthesis of "hund" and "kuon." These did all develop from the same root, and Tolkien used his knowledge of sound changes to trace it back to what it might have sounded like when the elves first influenced us: they were the first with a spoken language after all.

02-05-2003, 05:55 PM	#12
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	Huan´s analysis seems to me quite right. Watching the FotR-video very often I remember only two words that Arwen uses when she makes the river wash away the ringwraiths. They are "Bruinen" and "Hithaeglir". She pronounces them the way I would have done it if I had to read them loud (in the book). Her language seems to me being Sindarin and not Quenya. Am I right? All these "th" in it is not usual in Quenya.

02-05-2003, 06:23 PM	#13
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yes, all of the Elvish spoken is Sindarin, I believe, as Quenya is really a form of "book-Elvish." Sad to say, but I have memorised her River-calling spell. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-09-2003, 02:03 AM	#16
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	Thank you, Yapaluna.

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