Religion, is it really good for you?

Yapaluna · 01-30-2003, 05:54 PM

I would like, if I may, to take you on a strange journey.

Reading all the replies on gay, lesbian and so on I think a discussion on religion, especially the christian believes and their influence on our world might be interesting. I was surprised how many people in Entmood argue with the bible, what there is written and what it means for everyday´s life.

Just to start the discussion:

I think that the christian religion has come to exist because Paulus could not accept that the end of the world and the reign of god didn´t come within his lifetime. So he had to tell all the communities which are adressed by his letters to wait until St. Elsewhere. (Some of these letters are held to be falsifications by some scientists).

This is what the german scientist DESCHNER says. Could he be right?

Wayfarer · 01-30-2003, 06:16 PM

Probobly not.

That's the most unlikely explaination I've heard.

Let's get this straight: Paul can't accept that the world won't come within his lifetime, and so he tells everyone to wait because it's coming soon? How about not.

Yapaluna · 01-30-2003, 06:24 PM

Nooo!

I think my english is too bad.

The original prophecy of the messias was that the reign of god and the end of the known world would come soon. That means within the lifetime of his followers. Time passed and nothing happened. When these expectations were not fulfilled, Paulus did change the original message and told that it would come not in anybodies lifetime but when time itself has run out (or so).

Understand?

Coney · 01-30-2003, 06:31 PM

You mean Paul changed the prophecy regarding Armageddon/Judgement Day?

Undoubtedly he did......as God never popped down to judge us

Yapaluna · 01-30-2003, 06:43 PM

Exactly! The term "Judgement Day" was what I´ve been looking for.

I consider the christian religion to be a sect of the jewish which somehow just got out of control.

Or "came" out of control? Just forgive an old dwarf for forgetting his school days, where English was taught.

Elven Archer · 01-30-2003, 06:47 PM

since there's already a religion thread and an offshoot disscusion religion thread, i still don't think i get what this one's about.

Wayfarer · 01-30-2003, 06:51 PM

Oh, ok. I see what you're saying.

The jews were expecting a warlike messiah would would lead them to freedom, prosperity, and world domination.

However, it is questionable whether their expectations were reasonable. The religious authorities of that day were well known for overinterpreting things.

Certainly, there was a substantial percentage of jews that believed jesus christ to be the messiah.
In that way at least, Paul did not change anything. He simply provided a better interpretation of the stuff that was there.

As to christianity's coming into existence because of paul, that's flat out impossible. It had already become well established before his conversion, which (whatever you may think about it) happened while he was attempting to stamp out christianity. Certainly he wasn't the cause of all this.

One last question: Why should I care what 'some scientists' think? I am highly skeptical that this Dershner fellow is qualified to speak on historical matters.

Finmandos12 · 01-30-2003, 07:10 PM

There is tons of historical evidence that points to the existence of Jesus as a real person. There is also a lot of evidence that backs up his resurrection.

Quote:

The original prophecy of the messias was that the reign of god and the end of the known world would come soon.

Not true. The prophecies said that the Messiah would save mankind. As Wayfarer said, the Jews interpreted this to mean that the Messiah would overthrow Rome.

Quote:

When these expectations were not fulfilled, Paulus did change the original message and told that it would come not in anybodies lifetime but when time itself has run out

If you're talking about Revelation, that was written by John, not Paul

Yapaluna · 01-30-2003, 07:11 PM

Well, all I do is read books, and Deschner has published some of them . I cannot check all the original sources that are quoted by him, but he sounded to me quite convicting.

You are right, Paul did not really found or invent the christian religion.

Besides, I didn´t notice that there is already a thread about religion. Perhaps we should close this one and join into the older thread.

Maedhros · 01-30-2003, 07:13 PM

To tell you the truth, I find Tolkien's legendarium more pretty and interesting than any religion.

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-30-2003, 07:19 PM

Actually, Tolkien legendarium is, in a way, an offshoot of his religion.

Also, this Deschner chap wouldn't happen to be the same one that claims Jesus Christ and Julius Caesar and one and the same, would he?

WallRocker · 01-30-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Actually, Tolkien legendarium is, in a way, an offshoot of his religion.

True, true

Quote:

You are right, Paul did not really found or invent the christian religion.

Correct. In reality, Christ invented the Chrstian religion, if you can call it an invention. Paul was actually a Jew who pursucuted the Chritians in the early days of the church, and then was converted to Christianity after he had a vision from God. If you want more info, I would reccomond a great historical book... it''s called the Bible

Arien the Maia · 01-30-2003, 10:44 PM

I must agree with Maedhros and say that I wish that what Tolkien wrote actually happened as far as religion goes....I am Catholic and so was Tolkien so I do have somewhat of a connection with it but still, it isn't quite the same

Admiral Ackbar · 01-30-2003, 11:03 PM

I think the question is is it good for our race Sure, it kept the peasants in line and gave 'hope' to those who had pretty crappy lives in the day but it also gave rise to the Crusades and other nasty religious conflicts.

*Note I'm referring to religion in general.

markedel · 01-31-2003, 06:11 PM

Interstingly I have heard people consider Paul to be the prime mover of Christianity as we know-primarily in his rejection of Jewish law as binding. Must be a Jewish thing. I'm over my head in discussing Christian theology (I don't know any to speak of) but that's what I've heard.

There are a bunch of religion threads floating here and there.

Yapaluna · 02-01-2003, 06:44 PM

Just some informations about that Deschner chap:

Karlheinz Deschner, born 1924 in the city of Bamberg, Germany

Studied germanistics, history, philosophy and theology at the universities of Bamberg and Würzburg

Working as a free writer since 1951, member of PEN-Club.

My quotations on the start of the thread came just out of my memory and were not totally correct.

Coney · 02-01-2003, 06:49 PM

And here's some more

*Gone Google*

Yapaluna · 02-01-2003, 07:01 PM

OK, let´s just stop this now.

Making up this thread was obviously not one of my best ideas. If you don´t mind let it fall into oblivion.

Dúnedain · 02-01-2003, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yapaluna
OK, let´s just stop this now.

Making up this thread was obviously not one of my best ideas. If you don´t mind let it fall into oblivion.

*bump*

Sween · 02-02-2003, 11:20 AM

anyone from england should watch God Tv channel 671 on sky truely the most scary channel ever made these people are crazy.

01-30-2003, 05:54 PM	#1
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	Religion, is it really good for you? I would like, if I may, to take you on a strange journey. Reading all the replies on gay, lesbian and so on I think a discussion on religion, especially the christian believes and their influence on our world might be interesting. I was surprised how many people in Entmood argue with the bible, what there is written and what it means for everyday´s life. Just to start the discussion: I think that the christian religion has come to exist because Paulus could not accept that the end of the world and the reign of god didn´t come within his lifetime. So he had to tell all the communities which are adressed by his letters to wait until St. Elsewhere. (Some of these letters are held to be falsifications by some scientists). This is what the german scientist DESCHNER says. Could he be right?

01-30-2003, 06:16 PM	#2
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Probobly not. That's the most unlikely explaination I've heard. Let's get this straight: Paul can't accept that the world won't come within his lifetime, and so he tells everyone to wait because it's coming soon? How about not. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-30-2003, 06:31 PM	#4
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	You mean Paul changed the prophecy regarding Armageddon/Judgement Day? Undoubtedly he did......as God never popped down to judge us __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

01-30-2003, 06:47 PM	#6
Elven Archer Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: America! Posts: 480	since there's already a religion thread and an offshoot disscusion religion thread, i still don't think i get what this one's about. __________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: 'it goes on'." ~robert frost

01-30-2003, 06:51 PM	#7
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Oh, ok. I see what you're saying. The jews were expecting a warlike messiah would would lead them to freedom, prosperity, and world domination. However, it is questionable whether their expectations were reasonable. The religious authorities of that day were well known for overinterpreting things. Certainly, there was a substantial percentage of jews that believed jesus christ to be the messiah. In that way at least, Paul did not change anything. He simply provided a better interpretation of the stuff that was there. As to christianity's coming into existence because of paul, that's flat out impossible. It had already become well established before his conversion, which (whatever you may think about it) happened while he was attempting to stamp out christianity. Certainly he wasn't the cause of all this. One last question: Why should I care what 'some scientists' think? I am highly skeptical that this Dershner fellow is qualified to speak on historical matters. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-30-2003, 06:24 PM	#3
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	Nooo! I think my english is too bad. The original prophecy of the messias was that the reign of god and the end of the known world would come soon. That means within the lifetime of his followers. Time passed and nothing happened. When these expectations were not fulfilled, Paulus did change the original message and told that it would come not in anybodies lifetime but when time itself has run out (or so). Understand?

01-30-2003, 06:43 PM	#5
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	Exactly! The term "Judgement Day" was what I´ve been looking for. I consider the christian religion to be a sect of the jewish which somehow just got out of control. Or "came" out of control? Just forgive an old dwarf for forgetting his school days, where English was taught.

01-30-2003, 07:11 PM	#9
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	Well, all I do is read books, and Deschner has published some of them . I cannot check all the original sources that are quoted by him, but he sounded to me quite convicting. You are right, Paul did not really found or invent the christian religion. Besides, I didn´t notice that there is already a thread about religion. Perhaps we should close this one and join into the older thread.

01-30-2003, 07:13 PM	#10
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	To tell you the truth, I find Tolkien's legendarium more pretty and interesting than any religion. __________________ “What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

01-30-2003, 07:19 PM	#11
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Actually, Tolkien legendarium is, in a way, an offshoot of his religion. Also, this Deschner chap wouldn't happen to be the same one that claims Jesus Christ and Julius Caesar and one and the same, would he? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

01-30-2003, 10:44 PM	#13
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	I must agree with Maedhros and say that I wish that what Tolkien wrote actually happened as far as religion goes....I am Catholic and so was Tolkien so I do have somewhat of a connection with it but still, it isn't quite the same

01-30-2003, 11:03 PM	#14
Admiral Ackbar Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 30	re I think the question is is it good for our race Sure, it kept the peasants in line and gave 'hope' to those who had pretty crappy lives in the day but it also gave rise to the Crusades and other nasty religious conflicts. *Note I'm referring to religion in general. __________________ "We've got to give those fighters more time! Concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer!"--Admiral Ackbar

01-31-2003, 06:11 PM	#15
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Interstingly I have heard people consider Paul to be the prime mover of Christianity as we know-primarily in his rejection of Jewish law as binding. Must be a Jewish thing. I'm over my head in discussing Christian theology (I don't know any to speak of) but that's what I've heard. There are a bunch of religion threads floating here and there. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-01-2003, 06:44 PM	#16
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	Just some informations about that Deschner chap: Karlheinz Deschner, born 1924 in the city of Bamberg, Germany Studied germanistics, history, philosophy and theology at the universities of Bamberg and Würzburg Working as a free writer since 1951, member of PEN-Club. My quotations on the start of the thread came just out of my memory and were not totally correct.

02-01-2003, 06:49 PM	#17
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	And here's some more Gone Google __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

02-01-2003, 07:01 PM	#18
Yapaluna Enting Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Druxberge (about 500 inhabitants) near Magdeburg Posts: 73	OK, let´s just stop this now. Making up this thread was obviously not one of my best ideas. If you don´t mind let it fall into oblivion.

02-02-2003, 11:20 AM	#20
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	anyone from england should watch God Tv channel 671 on sky truely the most scary channel ever made these people are crazy. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

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