7 Crowns.....what?

Melkor's significant othe · 01-30-2003, 07:50 AM

During Gandalf's and Saruman's exchange after the victory at Helm's Deep and the overthrow of Isengard, Saruman refuses to come down or hand over his staff. He mentions that Gandalf is trying to take over everything - viz. the 5 rods of the wizards (We know what that is ), also the 7 crowns of the kings ......( AND that's my query, what are the 7 crowns???? Who/where are they ?)
Ta if anyone can shed some light.
MSO

Spock · 01-30-2003, 08:16 AM

I've always thought that an error. The Nazgul represented 9 kings. No reference book I have mentions just seven.:
There is "the king of the Dead" and the "king under the mountain" if they count them its 11 kings so again 7 is not supported.

Wayfarer · 01-30-2003, 12:28 PM

It's worth looking into.

BeardofPants · 01-30-2003, 02:30 PM

In the earlier evolution of LOTR (HoME 6) there were only seven black riders. Or perhaps it's referring to the seven 'houses' of the dwarves? -- Also mentioned in HoME 6.

Gwaimir Windgem · 01-30-2003, 02:49 PM

Hmm....King of Gondor, King of Rohan, King under the Mountain...More I'm sure. But if it meant the Nazgul, wouldn't that be 7 Rings?

***Rían*** · 01-30-2003, 03:19 PM

I always thought it had something to do with the saying "seven stars and seven stones and one white tree". But I would say it's pretty safe that it's NOT a mistake - he went over every sentence so many times that it's not likely. I think most probably it's what he talked about, probably in "Letters" - how it's nice having some thing NOT explained in a story - it gives it more of a feeling of depth, and of unexplored vistas, and more tales to tell if only there was enough time, etc.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-30-2003, 03:22 PM

I believe there were Seven Kings of Rohan since Saruman came to Isengard. That may have something to do with it. (I think there were seven kings, but I'm not sure.)

WallRocker · 01-30-2003, 06:06 PM

There's probably somethinh in the HoME sries, like BoP said. Or maybe Tolkien made a mistake

Falagar · 01-30-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

There's probably somethinh in the HoME sries, like BoP said. Or maybe Tolkien made a mistake

How dare you come up with such an accusation!

WallRocker · 01-30-2003, 08:17 PM

Oh, I'm just one of those teenage trouble-makers...

Ma Uai: Ua Nemti · 01-30-2003, 10:28 PM

I agree with Rian that it probably wasnt a mistake.

BeardofPants · 01-31-2003, 01:29 AM

I dunno... I've only read the first of the LOTR histories, and there are a few oversights, ie distances and stuff.

Artanis · 01-31-2003, 04:10 AM

I'm with BoP. Yeah Tolkien worked hard with details, but even he wasn't perfect, and according to himself he didn't have enough time to do everything as thoroughly as he would prefer.

The Warden of the Keys · 01-31-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
I believe there were Seven Kings of Rohan since Saruman came to Isengard. That may have something to do with it. (I think there were seven kings, but I'm not sure.)

Théoden was the eighth King of the Mark since Saruman set up shop in Isengard: (Fréaláf, Brytta, Walda, Folca, Folcwine, Fengel, Thengel, Théoden). You might be correct, but I can't help thinking that the "crowns of seven kings" has a more important meaning then the Kings of Rohan. Saruman lumped "crowns of seven kings" and "the rods of the Five Wizards" together. Only Gandalf would have know what "Five Wizards" meant, so I think the crowns part must have had a deeper meaning

Falagar · 01-31-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Oh, I'm just one of those teenage trouble-makers...

Now, when I was young [read: yesterday] we had respect...grumble...todays youth...grumble...

I too think that "the Crowns of the seven Kings" would have some deeper meaning than the kings of Rohan...

Spock · 01-31-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
In the earlier evolution of LOTR (HoME 6) there were only seven black riders. Or perhaps it's referring to the seven 'houses' of the dwarves? -- Also mentioned in HoME 6.

YEP BUT that's why they didn't hold sway over the elves intervention after the attack at Bree. They didn't have the necessary numbers. Of course this is another question/answer entirely.

Dúnedain · 01-31-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melkor's significant othe
viz. the 5 rods of the wizards (We know what that is )

We do? I don't, care to tell me

Wayfarer · 01-31-2003, 11:39 PM

Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Morentar and Romenstar

***azalea*** · 01-31-2003, 11:52 PM

Just a knife in the dark here (yuk yuk), but maybe he means the seven kings of the races left in the world, so he means Gandalf is trying to legitimize a world takeover? It could mean Thranduil, Elrond, Celeborn, Dain (he's still the dwarf king then, right?), Theoden, Gondor (king or steward there, but it's symbolic I guess), and ??? I realize Celeborn and Elrond weren't technically kings (or were they? I don't think so) Anyway, it's a thought. (That he's trying to win over those kings to his rule by underhanded means -- which is of course absurd).

Dúnedain · 02-01-2003, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Morentar and Romenstar

I know who the 5 wizards are, but it says rods....

01-30-2003, 07:50 AM	#1
Melkor's significant othe Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK, Manchester Posts: 40	7 Crowns.....what? During Gandalf's and Saruman's exchange after the victory at Helm's Deep and the overthrow of Isengard, Saruman refuses to come down or hand over his staff. He mentions that Gandalf is trying to take over everything - viz. the 5 rods of the wizards (We know what that is ), also the 7 crowns of the kings ......( AND that's my query, what are the 7 crowns???? Who/where are they ?) Ta if anyone can shed some light. MSO

01-30-2003, 08:16 AM	#2
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	I've always thought that an error. The Nazgul represented 9 kings. No reference book I have mentions just seven.: There is "the king of the Dead" and the "king under the mountain" if they count them its 11 kings so again 7 is not supported. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 01-30-2003 at 08:31 AM.

01-30-2003, 12:28 PM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	It's worth looking into. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-30-2003, 02:30 PM	#4
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	In the earlier evolution of LOTR (HoME 6) there were only seven black riders. Or perhaps it's referring to the seven 'houses' of the dwarves? -- Also mentioned in HoME 6. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-30-2003, 02:49 PM	#5
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Hmm....King of Gondor, King of Rohan, King under the Mountain...More I'm sure. But if it meant the Nazgul, wouldn't that be 7 Rings? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

01-30-2003, 03:19 PM	#6
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	I always thought it had something to do with the saying "seven stars and seven stones and one white tree". But I would say it's pretty safe that it's NOT a mistake - he went over every sentence so many times that it's not likely. I think most probably it's what he talked about, probably in "Letters" - how it's nice having some thing NOT explained in a story - it gives it more of a feeling of depth, and of unexplored vistas, and more tales to tell if only there was enough time, etc. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

01-30-2003, 03:22 PM	#7
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	I believe there were Seven Kings of Rohan since Saruman came to Isengard. That may have something to do with it. (I think there were seven kings, but I'm not sure.)

01-30-2003, 06:06 PM	#8
WallRocker Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: At the computer... Posts: 376	There's probably somethinh in the HoME sries, like BoP said. Or maybe Tolkien made a mistake __________________ Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all

01-30-2003, 08:17 PM	#10
WallRocker Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: At the computer... Posts: 376	Oh, I'm just one of those teenage trouble-makers... __________________ Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all

01-30-2003, 10:28 PM	#11
Ma Uai: Ua Nemti Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: We'd tell you but you're all out to get us. Posts: 215	I agree with Rian that it probably wasnt a mistake. __________________ Pharoah "Vires decusque."

01-31-2003, 01:29 AM	#12
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I dunno... I've only read the first of the LOTR histories, and there are a few oversights, ie distances and stuff. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-31-2003, 04:10 AM	#13
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I'm with BoP. Yeah Tolkien worked hard with details, but even he wasn't perfect, and according to himself he didn't have enough time to do everything as thoroughly as he would prefer. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-31-2003, 11:39 PM	#18
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Morentar and Romenstar __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-31-2003, 11:52 PM	#19
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Just a knife in the dark here (yuk yuk), but maybe he means the seven kings of the races left in the world, so he means Gandalf is trying to legitimize a world takeover? It could mean Thranduil, Elrond, Celeborn, Dain (he's still the dwarf king then, right?), Theoden, Gondor (king or steward there, but it's symbolic I guess), and ??? I realize Celeborn and Elrond weren't technically kings (or were they? I don't think so) Anyway, it's a thought. (That he's trying to win over those kings to his rule by underhanded means -- which is of course absurd).